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jkubatko
Joined: 05 Jan 2005
Posts: 702
Location: Columbus, OH
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kjb
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 865
Location: Washington, DC
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 Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Is it just me, or do Nash's numbers look kinda puny on that list?
And, interesting how with Nash, a piece of "evidence" for belonging on the list is being one of only two PGs to win back-to-back MVP awards. |
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Mike G
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 3613
Location: Hendersonville, NC
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:26 pm Post subject: |
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On Jason Kidd:
" A brilliant passer -- his 9.2 assists per game average trail only Magic, Stockton and Oscar."
This appears right next to Isiah's picture. According to b-r.com, Isiah averaged 9.26 apg, to Kidd's 9.19 (thru this season). In fact, Kidd's last 4 seasons have been under his career apg mark, so it will almost certainly continue to drop -- probably below Kevin Johnson's 9.13 by next year.
Wow, they list the vote-point totals: Magic tops at 126; Payton 10th with 23. Several others received votes, but not KJ. Some of his other numbers are seriously better than some of the 'top 10'.
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FrontRange
Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 131
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 6:33 pm Post subject: |
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Everyone always thinks that the current moment is most important (life, politcis, envir, etc.) . . .makes it hard to judge current players in poll like this.
Did find it interesting that Thomas finished above Stock and in a chat today Greg Anthony claimed that Thomas was his toughest match-up. You might recall, Anthony was Portland key PG in defeating Utah on thier run to the finals (controlling Stockton) where Thomas destroyed the Blazers. |
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mathayus
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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| WizardsKev wrote: | Is it just me, or do Nash's numbers look kinda puny on that list?
And, interesting how with Nash, a piece of "evidence" for belonging on the list is being one of only two PGs to win back-to-back MVP awards. |
I'm rather perplexed that you wouldn't expect Nash's back-to-back MVPs to count quite a bit in a poll like this.
I would say though I think it's a bit much to have Nash above Payton. I also think it's interesting how uneven the partition between point guards and other positions were. Oscar got left out by one player, West got some votes, Tiny was included while AI got no mention. |
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alphamale
Joined: 03 May 2006
Posts: 67
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 8:41 pm Post subject: |
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| FrontRange wrote: | | Everyone always thinks that the current moment is most important (life, politcis, envir, etc.) . . .makes it hard to judge current players in poll like this. |
Yeah, I think most of today's fans have never heard of Bob Cousy. I personally pick the Big O over Magic because because of better scoring and defense.
I think Isiah is overrated. And before you guys stomp on me for saying that I'll let you know than I'm from Detroit. His assist to turnover ratio for his career is just 2.46, and he was an average perimeter shooter and free throw shooter for a point guard. He also didn't make 1st or second team all NBA past 1987. Compare that with the resumes of Kidd and Payton.
I can't wait for ESPN to come out with the best of all time for the other 4 positions.
My personal rankings would look like this:
1 Oscar Robertson (Third best defender behind Frazier and Payton)
2 Magic Johnson (Can play all positions but had suspect defense)
3 Jerry West (Can play both guard spots)
4 John Stockton (Better than Nash)
5 Bob Cousy (Best ballhandler ever, but 37.5 shooting hurts him)
6 Gary Payton (Defense as well as Longevity)
7 Walt Frazier (Best defendsive pt guard ever)
8 Jason Kidd (Take out the bad shooting and he's right up there)
9 Isiah Thomas (And I'm from Detroit!!!)
10 Steve Nash
Honourable Mention: Allen Iverson, Tiny Archibald, Dave Bing, Lenny Wilkins, Dennis Johnson, Gail Goodrich, Kevin Johnson, Fat Lever, Tim Hardaway, Penny Hardaway |
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Kevin Pelton
Site Admin
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 979
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:19 pm Post subject: |
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I find it interesting that Nash was ahead of Payton, but Payton appeared on the TNT Next 10 list in February while Nash was omitted.
It wasn't exactly like Nash wasn't an MVP candidate in February, though of course the selections were made by two totally different groups. |
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Neil Paine
Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 774
Location: Atlanta, GA
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike G wrote: | On Jason Kidd:
" A brilliant passer -- his 9.2 assists per game average trail only Magic, Stockton and Oscar."
This appears right next to Isiah's picture. According to b-r.com, Isiah averaged 9.26 apg, to Kidd's 9.19 (thru this season). In fact, Kidd's last 4 seasons have been under his career apg mark, so it will almost certainly continue to drop -- probably below Kevin Johnson's 9.13 by next year. |
Kidd's career AstR is 33.9, and Thomas' is 29.2, though. Also, I think the bias is there toward Kidd as a better passer than Isiah because Isiah was such a dramatically better scorer than JKidd has been -- all those points might discount Thomas' playmaking in some people's minds.
I especially liked this:
| Quote: | [Nash is] the only point guard other than Magic to win back-to-back MVPs.
Takes the "makes players around him better" tag to a whole new level. Has the ability to make entire teams adjust to his style of play. |
Wasn't Mike D'Antoni going to play breakneck basketball anyway, whether Nash was there or not? Didn't he even force it on a team with Stephon Marbury at the point -- a PG that couldn't be less suited to a running style, given his pick-and-roll tendencies? The Suns didn't adjust to Nash's style at all; Bryan Colangelo just went out and found the best available free agent PG that would fit the style D'Antoni wanted! Also, I agree with Kev -- the newly-minted two Nash MVP's feel like invented "evidence" here. I'm not saying Nash doesn't belong on the list (if anything, he probably should be higher than Isiah, a guy whose career PER of 18.1 is lower than anybody in the rankings except Tiny's), but it does seem odd that the media (I mean you, ESPN) which largely drove Nash's MVP bids is now putting them up as evidence for his greatness. Just saying. |
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deepak
Joined: 26 Apr 2006
Posts: 665
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| Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:03 pm Post subject: |
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| davis21wylie2121 wrote: |
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Takes the "makes players around him better" tag to a whole new level. Has the ability to make entire teams adjust to his style of play. |
Wasn't Mike D'Antoni going to play breakneck basketball anyway, whether Nash was there or not? Didn't he even force it on a team with Stephon Marbury at the point -- a PG that couldn't be less suited to a running style, given his pick-and-roll tendencies? The Suns didn't adjust to Nash's style at all; Bryan Colangelo just went out and found the best available free agent PG that would fit the style D'Antoni wanted! |
I think what they meant is he forces opposing teams to adjust to his style of play. Though the Suns do push the tempo quite a bit even when Nash is sitting. From 82games, it looks like with Nash on court, they get 95.5 poss per 48min, and with Nash off court they still get 94.9 poss per 48min. That's still quite comfortably a league leading pace. |
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kjb
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 865
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 9:11 am Post subject: |
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| mathayus wrote: | | WizardsKev wrote: | Is it just me, or do Nash's numbers look kinda puny on that list?
And, interesting how with Nash, a piece of "evidence" for belonging on the list is being one of only two PGs to win back-to-back MVP awards. |
I'm rather perplexed that you wouldn't expect Nash's back-to-back MVPs to count quite a bit in a poll like this. |
I guess it's because I'm not convinced that Nash deserved either of those awards. I thought he was worthy of being in the conversation about MVP, but back-to-back -- I don't think he was that good. I just found it interesting that he wins two fairly controversial votes, then has those two awards count so much in a ranking such as this. |
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kjb
Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 865
Location: Washington, DC
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:11 am Post subject: |
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| deepak_e wrote: | | davis21wylie2121 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Takes the "makes players around him better" tag to a whole new level. Has the ability to make entire teams adjust to his style of play. |
Wasn't Mike D'Antoni going to play breakneck basketball anyway, whether Nash was there or not? Didn't he even force it on a team with Stephon Marbury at the point -- a PG that couldn't be less suited to a running style, given his pick-and-roll tendencies? The Suns didn't adjust to Nash's style at all; Bryan Colangelo just went out and found the best available free agent PG that would fit the style D'Antoni wanted! |
I think what they meant is he forces opposing teams to adjust to his style of play. Though the Suns do push the tempo quite a bit even when Nash is sitting. From 82games, it looks like with Nash on court, they get 95.5 poss per 48min, and with Nash off court they still get 94.9 poss per 48min. That's still quite comfortably a league leading pace. |
Surprising that the difference is so small considering Nash's reputation for controlling the tempo. Compare, for example, with Gilbert Arenas. When Gil's on the floor, the Wiz are at 92.3 possessions per 48 minutes -- when he sits, they slow to 85.9. The Nets go from 90.2 to 85.1 when Jason Kidd sits. Similar for Sacramento for Bibby's on/off (on: 92.0; off: 87.6). Interesting. |
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capnhistory
Joined: 27 Jul 2005
Posts: 62
Location: Durham, North Carolina
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 10:14 pm Post subject: |
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| alphamale wrote: | | FrontRange wrote: | | Everyone always thinks that the current moment is most important (life, politcis, envir, etc.) . . .makes it hard to judge current players in poll like this. |
Yeah, I think most of today's fans have never heard of Bob Cousy. |
I think it is absolutely criminal how little respect Bob Cousy is getting in this discussion. Here's a two time MVP and six time champion, who pretty much established what we think of today as the playmaking point guard. We know that the rules for awarding assists in Cousy's era translated to an artificial reduction of his numbers. I aknowledge that he had a poor field goal percentage, but that doesn't look as bad when you remember that he played a lot of years when the league average FG% was low by today's standards. That early Celtics dynasty worked because he invented the assist first-guard position to feed the ball to the likes of Bill Russell, Tom Heinsohn, and Sam Jones. He lead the Association in assists 8 straight times, demolishing the compitition in five of those seasons. He was also a potent scorer too finishing in the top 3 in points scored in four straight seasons and in the top ten in seven straight seasons. Even with his deflated assist totals and admittedly poor shooting he still has a better career PER than Nash, Payton, Kidd, Tiny, Walt, and Isiah. I heartily agree that Magic and Oscar were transcendent, revolutionary players an they deserve to rank above the Cooz, but no one else is within a city block of those three. I cannot stress enough that Bob Cousy did more than anyone else to define the point guard position, and for that he has to rank above recent stars like Isiah and Stockton.
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94by50
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 499
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 1:05 am Post subject: |
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| capnhistory wrote: | | alphamale wrote: | | FrontRange wrote: | | Everyone always thinks that the current moment is most important (life, politcis, envir, etc.) . . .makes it hard to judge current players in poll like this. |
Yeah, I think most of today's fans have never heard of Bob Cousy. |
I think it is absolutely criminal how little respect Bob Cousy is getting in this discussion. Here's a two time MVP and six time champion, who pretty much established what we think of today as the playmaking point guard. We know that the rules for awarding assists in Cousy's era translated to an artificial reduction of his numbers. I aknowledge that he had a poor field goal percentage, but that doesn't look as bad when you remember that he played a lot of years when the league average FG% was low by today's standards. That early Celtics dynasty worked because he invented the assist first-guard position to feed the ball to the likes of Bill Russell, Tom Heinsohn, and Sam Jones. He lead the Association in assists 8 straight times, demolishing the compitition in five of those seasons. He was also a potent scorer too finishing in the top 3 in points scored in four straight seasons and in the top ten in seven straight seasons. Even with his deflated assist totals and admittedly poor shooting he still has a better career PER than Nash, Payton, Kidd, Tiny, Walt, and Isiah. I heartily agree that Magic and Oscar were transcendent, revolutionary players an they deserve to rank above the Cooz, but no one else is within a city block of those three. I cannot stress enough that Bob Cousy did more than anyone else to define the point guard position, and for that he has to rank above recent stars like Isiah and Stockton. |
Whoa, whoa, whoa... slow down.
I don't see any "criminal... lack of respect" for Cooz here. I think you're equating a lack of mention with a lack of respect, but those two don't necessarily go hand-in-hand. Yes, Cousy was an all-timer, but his career basically ended in 1963. I doubt that very many of the members here were even alive then. |
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mathayus
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 212
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 2:24 am Post subject: |
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| admin wrote: | I find it interesting that Nash was ahead of Payton, but Payton appeared on the TNT Next 10 list in February while Nash was omitted.
It wasn't exactly like Nash wasn't an MVP candidate in February, though of course the selections were made by two totally different groups. |
Well, having half of an MVP quality season isn't considered nearly as impressive as having a full one. I think most people intra-head all-time rankings stay pretty constant during the season and go through the major chances when the season ends and there is no of giving a guy credit for a season that turns out never to come into existence. |
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Mike G
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 3613
Location: Hendersonville, NC
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| Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 5:34 am Post subject: |
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| capnhistory wrote: |
I think it is absolutely criminal how little respect Bob Cousy is getting in this discussion. Here's a two time MVP... |
From solitary confinement:
Cooz won two allstar game mvp's, but his only MVP was 1957, when Russell had come, to put them over the top.
| Quote: | | ..and six time champion, who pretty much established what we think of today as the playmaking point guard.... |
Actually, he was the do-everything guard. Playmakers of the era included Andy Phillip, Dick McGuire, Bob Davies, Frankie Brian... Cousy added the scoring punch to the job.
| Quote: | | We know that the rules for awarding assists in Cousy's era translated to an artificial reduction of his numbers... |
I've looked at this and made adjustments for every NBA/ABA season, into the late '70s when it seems to have levelled off. Here's how I've got the top PG ranked in order of assists/36 (enviro-adjusted):
11.8 John Stockton
10.4 Magic Johnson
9.6 Jason Kidd
9.4 Mark Jackson
9.0 Kevin Johnson
8.8 Isiah Thomas
8.6 Rod Strickland
8.3 Tim Hardaway
8.0 Oscar Robertson
7.8 Bob Cousy
Of these 10, only Magic and Oscar had higher scoring rates than Cousy. (Not factoring in shooting %). Cousy's (and Oscar's) Ast rates are somewhat depressed by the abundance of FG made, in that era.
| Quote: | | He led the Association in assists 8 straight times...Bob Cousy did more than anyone else to define the point guard position, and for that he has to rank above recent stars like Isiah and Stockton. |
Stockton came along and 'refined' it, and had 9 straight Assist titles. I'd say 9 titles from among 25-29 teams is better than 8 titles when there were 8-10 teams.
We don't know Cousy's on/off numbers; but when he retired, the Celts did not miss a beat.
Cousy was one of those who went thru the advent of the shot clock (1954/1955) without any effect on his stats. Before and after, he had a year in which he made more FT than he did FG. As an 80% FT shooter (vs 38% FG), this was critical to his effectiveness as a scorer.
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