APBRmetrics

[tmansback]

What you think? Two players that share a number of similarities but also have some significant differences in there game. I think there a possibility that these two players have been bashed so much in there career that they have become underrated.

Now my background is a devoted Francis hater. I cant stand Francis's game. Its all streetball. He doesn't seem to know what position he wants to play. However, Larry Brown help make another PG that looked lost at what position he should play into one of the best PGs in the league. Well atleast gave him the confidence that he could be one of the best. Francis is probably a better passer at this point than Chauncey was.

Another thing that says maybe Steve can be a great steal for the Knicks. Steve has never been a number 2 option. If he was the number 2 player on a team perhaps his flaws wouldn't show up as much. I think teams are to quick to give someone "Franchise" player status. Some players are just all-stars if that. Francis is no ones Franchise. If he is then your Franchise is in the lottery. However a number 2 option could mean less turnovers, higher fg% and more wins. We kind of started to see Francis take a lesser role with the Rockets in Ming's second season. Will definetely see it in New York.

The Chauncey Billups handcuffs that Larry Brown had put on Marbury can be taken off and put on Francis. With it I think Marbury can be just as explosive as Gilbert Arenas. Francis becomes the PG which he is more confortable being. SG experiment didn't work in Orlando. The question is can Francis be atleast a 2003 2004 Chauncey Billups. Francis playing with another PG in the backcourt should take alot of pressure of him.

Marbury was great last year. He is taking alittle more criticism than he probably deserves. Shot 46% from the field was over 50% efg. Had one of the best offensive ratings in the league last year and although he never will be great defensively he wasn't horrible.

Now that he will be less of a PG and more like it was back in the 60s just a guard I think his game will really improve. This sounds crazy but Marbury is much better defending Sgs. I'm not sure exactly why but not having to defend on the ball probably saves him alot of energy. Plus his strength and quickness that is not a huge advantage against quick PGs shows up more against SGs. I've seen him play some of the best SGs in the league and he really causes them problems. Francis is about a average defender at PG himself. Which is probably an improvement on there play in the past.

Will it work who knows. I still think its a potential disaster. However, Marbury already been on a bunch of teams and if he doesn't want to be traded from his hometown. Francis is now on his 3rd team in the last couple of years. Its in there best interest to Listen to Larry Brown. If the players buy into Larry Brown I can see it working. If the backcourt gets there act together they have the talent on the front court to win some games.

[Mark]

On counterpart matchup the Knicks lose the PG & SG positions by about 2 points a night.

Francis in Orlando in an off performance year is winning his matchup by 1 at PG and 3 at SG. Last year it was 5 and 8 point positive margins. Different team may lead to different results of course. Isiah is hoping for last year or Houston type numbers from him. Francis' insertion could- depending on the last of trading- take some minutes from Crawford or Richardson or Robinson. Crawford is losing his matchup by almost 6 points. Richardson is a big loser at Sg losing by 13. Nate is even. Any way the minute substitution goes-on paper, which isnt the court- the Knicks seem like they might take a step forward at the G positions counterpart matchup.

But of course the big unknown is the impact on the rest of the team. Most assume it will be negative and I lean that way too. Whether it is small additional negative or big remains to be seen. It could be a small positive too because it is from a very poor base. But combined the two aspects of guard position production and overall team effect and in the end I think it is likely relatively little impact (could go a little either way) on winning this year or into next as currently configured. Not necessarily further disaster, just very likely continuing disaster compared to expectations.

But in Isiah's way of thinking he holds "value" in place of the Hardway contract that goes away and the churn of trades will continue with one of the current guards likely to move before next fall.

Thomas seems a lot like the Portland version of Whitsitt, valuing and acquiring talent on an individual talent basis but not having sufficient emphasis on and feel for overall team chemistry. I am sure he thinks he has a team plan but the churn makes it hard to identify or trust that there is one really firm, clear and well-chosen. Melding the talent into team chemistry is what he got Brown for but he hasnt shown much sign so far of being able to figure it out. Someday a new regime takes over with a specific plan that makes sense and is allowed time (2+ years) to implement and improve. But that seems a year or two away or longer.
I dont want to pile on too much but I dont have a lot of sympathy or friendly wishes to extend either. My team is too much of a mess to give much time for that.

[gabefarkas]

This 2-PG thing never seems to work, because both are high-usage-needs players. Remember when Milwaukee had GP and Sam Cassell for half a season?

[replayhoops]

I don't see how this will work. Just another dumb move by the Dolans to keep the no-nothing suckers sitting courtside at bay while shelling out $$$$ to watch this sorry team.

I've got one proposal...10 lashes for any sportswriter and sportscaster who has the audacity to compare Marbury/Francis to Frazier/Monroe.

[Mark]

Francis gives NY a 7th guy with a usage rate 20 or higher. Dallas does fine with 6 (I think the league's previous high) so it can work. NY having two high assist guys should be somewhat useful grease. Will offense rise from enemic 24th in the league? It might. Pace 11th fastest previously, will it go higher?

[Kevin Pelton]

[Mark]

Yep. For whole season 2002-3 Bucks were 5th best on scoring 25th on points allowed. For just second half of the season with Payton there the offense was even better and the defense was worse by most of a point in each case.

[gabefarkas]

i guess i meant personality-wise. statistically i'm sure both players won't suffer too much.

[Johnny Slick]

Below is a list of teammates since 1989 who:

- Each played at least 32 minutes a night
- Each had usage ratings of 23 or higher
- Played on the same team for the entire season

1989-90
-------
Tom Chambers and Kevin Johnson, PHO
Xavier McDaniel and Dale Ellis, SEA
Terry Cummings and David Robinson, SAS
Chris Mullin and Mitch Richmond, GSW

1990-1
------
Michael Adams and Orlando Woolridge, DEN
Antoine Carr and Wayman Tisdale, SAC
Tom Chambers and KJ, PHO
Tim Hardaway and Chris Mullin, GSW

1991-2
---------
none

1992-3
---------
Kenny Anderson and Derrick Coleman, NJN
Tim Hardaway and Chris Mullin, GSW
Derek Harper and Jim Jackson, DAL*

1993-4
--------
Kenny Anderson and Derrick Coleman, NJN
Kevin Johnson and Charles Barkley, PHO
Jamal Mashburn and Jimmy Jackson, DAL
Patrick Ewing and John Starks, NYK

1994-5
--------
Kenny Anderson and Derrick Coleman, NJN
Penny Hardaway and Shaquille O'Neal, ORL
Tim Hardaway and Latrell Sprewell, GSW* (and Chris Mullin)
Rod Strickland and Clifford Robinson, POR
Jamal Mashburn and Jimmy Jackson, DAL

1995-6
--------
Vin Baker and Glenn Robinson, MIL
Kevin Johnson and Charles Barkley, PHO
Penny Hardaway and Shaquille O'Neal, ORL
Juwan Howard, Robert Pack, and Chris Webber WASH
Jim Jackson, Jason Kidd, and Jamal Mashburn, DAL*
Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, CHI
Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton, SEA
Vernon Maxwell and Jerry Stackhouse, PHI*
Rod Strickland and Clifford Robinson, POR

1996-7
--------
Jerry Stackhouse, Allen Iverson, and Derrick Coleman, PHI*
Clyde Drexler and Hakeem Olajuwon, HOU
LaPhonso Ellis and Antonio McDyess, DEN
Tom Gugliotta and Stephon Marbury, MIN
Tim Hardaway and Alonzo Mourning, MIA
Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen, CHI
Shawn Kemp and Gary Payton, SEA
Rod Strickland and Chris Webber, WAS

1997-8
--------
Terrell Brandon and Glenn Robinson, MIL
Sam Cassell and Keith Van Horn, NJN
Allen Iverson and Derrick Coleman, PHI
Tim Duncan and David Robinson, SAS
Patrick Ewing and Allan Houston, NYK
Tim Hardaway and Alonzo Mourning, MIA
Rod Strickland and Chris Webber, WAS

1998
------
Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, LAL
Patrick Ewing and Latrell Sprewell, NYK

1999-2000
-------
Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, LAL
Ray Allen and Sam Cassell, MIL* (not to mention Glenn Robinson)
Terrell Brandon and Kevin Garnett, MIN
Grant Hill and Jerry Stackhouse, DET
Stephon Marbury and Keith Van Horn, NJN
Antonio McDyess and Nick Van Exel, DEN
Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker, BOS

2000-1
----------
Ray Allen and Sam Cassell, MIL* (not to mention Glenn Robinson)
Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, LAL
Larry Hughes and Antawn Jamison, GSW
Jason Kidd and Clifford Robinson, PHO
Antonio McDyess and Nick Van Exel, DEN
Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker, BOS

2001-2
---------
Ray Allen and Sam Cassell, MIL* (not to mention Glenn Robinson)
Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, LAL
Baron Davis and Jamal Mashburn, CHA
Richard Hamilton and Michael Jordan, WAS*
Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki, DAL
Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker, BOS

2002-3
--------
Gilbert Arenas and Antawn Jamison, GSW
Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, LAL
Baron Davis and Jamal Mashburn, NO
Michael Jordan and Jerry Stackhouse, WAS
Jason Kidd and Kenyon Martin, NJN
Steve Nash and Dirk Nowitzki, DAL
Paul Pierce and Antoine Walker, BOS

2003-4
--------
Kobe Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal, LAL
Sam Cassell and Kevin Garnett, MIN
Baron Davis and Jamal Mashburn, NO
Gilbert Arenas and Larry Hughes, WAS*
Ron Artest and Jermaine O'Neal, IND
Corey Maggette and Quinten Richardson, LAC

2004-5
---------
Gilbert Arenas and Larry Hughes, WAS*
Elton Brand and Corey Maggette, LAC
Tim Duncan and Tony Parker, SAS
Steve Francis and Grant Hill, ORL
Stephen Jackson, Jermaine O'Neal, and Jamaal Tinsley, IND
Steve Nash and Amare Stoudemire, PHO
Dwayne Wade and Shaq, MIA

*Two guards

[tmansback]

I think most people think it wont work because they see them as similar players and your duplicating two players. Which is very possible. The thing though that makes them very different IMO is Francis cant play SG and Marbury can. Not only that but Francis wants to be a PG and Marbury wants to be a SG. The question is not how can having 2 PGs on the floor effect your team. Even though I think it can be good. I think the question is more can Marbury become a Gilbert Arenas, Dwayne Wade like SG. We just saw Washington make the playoffs with Larry Hughes and Gilbert Arenas dominating the ball. I think we could have similar success in NY. My only issue is will Larry Brown let Marbury play his game now.