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RocketsFan
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 404
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 Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 9:46 pm Post subject: Basketball Hall of Merit |
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Would anyone be interested in a Hall of Merit for basketball, similar to the one set up at Baseball Think Factory? I think it would be fun to argue the merits of players throughout the game's history. Here is a link to the HOM Constitution...
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/hall_of_merit/discussion/our_constitution
... in case we need something to pattern the basketball version after. I suppose we'd need to change the name.
Admin, would you be interested in running this? |
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94by50
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 499
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2006 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Count me in.
As an aside... I've always wondered what a strictly NBA & ABA Hall of Fame might look like today. |
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ziller
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 126
Location: Sac Metro
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Mike G
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 3616
Location: Hendersonville, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 8:51 am Post subject: |
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Skimming over some of the stuff at the baseball site, a couple of things caught my eye:
-- They explicitly agree to considering only major league, professional careers (then some quibbling about Japanese pros)
-- They have a wide range of opinions on how much 'merit' there is in managing, GM-ing, etc.
The first point is a good one and, if anything, is even more crucial to basketball: College (amateur) credentials are a much bigger part. To consider, or not?
On the 2nd issue, I'm tempted to withhold my opinion; but I won't. I'd be more inclined to embark on a 'Pro Basketball Players Hall of Merit'. Other 'contributors' are of course necessary to the game; but so are fans. Maybe someday 'Kings fans' will get a group entry to the HOF. Or ESPN. Or Nike.
Only players put on the uniform. OK, referees do. Only players put the ball in the hole, how's that? OK, mascots do.
I do not want to ever find myself arguing whether David Stern should be in a Hall. Hell, we could end up voting for ourselves. If we limit it to NBA/ABA players, we at least can hope to quantify it; as if that weren't daunting enough.
Lastly (for now), we might consider doing without the whole In/Out thing. Just rank players, alltime: In the top 50, In the top 100, etc. A continuous spectrum, like. And continually evolving.
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gabefarkas
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 1313
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 9:57 am Post subject: |
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| Mike G wrote: |
Lastly (for now), we might consider doing without the whole In/Out thing. Just rank players, alltime: In the top 50, In the top 100, etc. A continuous spectrum, like. And continually evolving. |
Well then what if a player is in the top 50 at one point, and then as newer players surpass him, he drops out? How long would one have to have been in it to get in the HOM? |
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Mike G
Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 3616
Location: Hendersonville, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 10:37 am Post subject: |
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Gabe, my last line mentioned 'doing away with' the In vs Out line. If 50 is an important number to you, or 75, then you should feel free to draw your own personal line there.
As an online entity, the notion of 'Hall' is kinda funny. If it's not a building, there are no walls to be kept outside (or inside) of. And if you aren't constrained to a building, an alltime-ranking list can extend to 200, 500, 2000,... At some point you lose interest.
And, with buildings such as one calls a 'Hall', we have terms like 'enshrinement', 'pantheon', and other descriptions generally reserved for deities. In fact, no one should be permanently enthroned at #1 (not even Wilt); nor top 10 (not even Oscar); nor top 50 (Unseld)...
Yes, players would constantly be slipping out of the Top XX . No, it shouldn't be a problem.
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94by50
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 499
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:56 am Post subject: |
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| Mike G wrote: | | Lastly (for now), we might consider doing without the whole In/Out thing. Just rank players, alltime: In the top 50, In the top 100, etc. A continuous spectrum, like. And continually evolving. |
Hasn't that been overdone? I mean, the NBA came out with a top 25 list for its 25th anniversary, then a top 35 list for its 35th, then the top 50 list for its 50th. Granted, they didn't rank anyone, but they were all top XX lists.
The idea of an NBA/ABA only "Hall of Fame" project appeals to me because I feel like their players (and coaches) should be the centerpiece of the Hall of Fame, and they are not. I understand the need to recognize pioneers and contributors to the development of the game both in the U.S. and globally. I don't fault the Hall of Fame for doing it. However, I feel like there are so many "other" people enshrined at Springfield that the central figures of the NBA (and ABA) are almost marginalized. That doesn't seem right.
EDIT: Perhaps the above is too negative. Suffice to say, I would rather have seen those who made their mark in the NBA/ABA honored in a Hall of Fame specifically meant for those leagues. I believe such an institution might have fostered the same kind of discussion and debate that the Baseball Hall of Fame generates, regarding who belongs and who does not. |
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gabefarkas
Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 1313
Location: Durham, NC
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Mike G wrote: | | Gabe, my last line mentioned 'doing away with' the In vs Out line. If 50 is an important number to you, or 75, then you should feel free to draw your own personal line there. |
Umm, I got that, but you said it would be "continually evolving" as well. So, I was asking about a scenario where as of say 1975 a player is in the Top 10 in whatever ranking system is being used, and has been there consistently since the inception of the ranking. However, that player then gradually is overtook by newer, better players and by 2005 is no longer even in the Top 50.
Does this player then still deserve to get in based on their pre-1975 merits? Is there an opportunity for them to get "impeached" (after being "elected")?
I guess what you were saying in your post was to just have a Pantheon Ranking, without a cut-off, right? |
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mtamada
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 6:55 pm Post subject: |
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| gabefarkas wrote: | | Mike G wrote: | | Gabe, my last line mentioned 'doing away with' the In vs Out line. If 50 is an important number to you, or 75, then you should feel free to draw your own personal line there. |
[...]
Does this player then still deserve to get in based on their pre-1975 merits? Is there an opportunity for them to get "impeached" (after being "elected")?
I guess what you were saying in your post was to just have a Pantheon Ranking, without a cut-off, right? |
Yes, I think another approach to what MikeG is saying is this: there need not be any such thing as a "Hall" (virtual or otherwise); i.e. there is no such thing as "in" or "out". There is simply the list, an evolving one.
Rec.sport.basketball.pro for years ran an ongoing NetHoF poll; it wasn't quite a pure ranking of the sort that MikeG envisions but it wasn't a simplistic in-or-out vote either, instead voters put each player into a specific category:
Super-Echelon
Solid HoF
Marginal HoF
Not HoF
Don't know/Too soon to tell
You can search deja.com for "NetHof" or "super echelon" in rec.sport.basketball.pro; here's a link to one of the posts (there were probably hundreds of posts over the years). |
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Kevin Pelton
Site Admin
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 979
Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2006 11:25 pm Post subject: Re: Basketball Hall of Merit |
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| RocketsFan wrote: | | Admin, would you be interested in running this? |
I would rather someone else step up, should they be interested, for time reasons. |
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RocketsFan
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Fri Jan 20, 2006 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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I'll take a shot at running this, though I'm gonna be busy with schoolwork this semester. I'm voting for limiting it to professional players: Should we include NBL and BAA players, or just NBA/ABA?
Just tell me who you think should be eligible for the Basketball Hall of Merit. |
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94by50
Joined: 01 Jan 2006
Posts: 499
Location: Phoenix
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| Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2006 4:01 am Post subject: |
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We should probably include NBL and BAA play, as well. Fulks was the BAA's biggest star, I suppose. Mikan played in it for one year. Other than that, I don't know who else will be a serious candidate.
EDIT: RocketsFan, I can make time to help you on this. I have a job, but that's my only major commitment.
Last edited by 94by50 on Mon Jan 23, 2006 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total |
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moneyp
Joined: 24 Feb 2005
Posts: 69
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| Posted: Mon Jan 23, 2006 8:04 am Post subject: |
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Incidentally, this has been done for hockey as well:
http://www.chidlovski.com/wwhhof/
It's a fascinating look at the process, if nothing else. |
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RocketsFan
Joined: 23 Oct 2005
Posts: 404
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| Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 9:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Also, if you could cast your vote on what you think the Basketball Hall of Merit should be called... |
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ziller
Joined: 30 Jun 2005
Posts: 126
Location: Sac Metro
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| Posted: Thu Jan 26, 2006 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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I'd happy to do some work on this, as well. I think the effort needs to be lead by no more than a few core people, though obviously the process would need to use the whole community to work.
And an expected result needs to be formulated. I'm sure Knickerblogger and Co. could be talked into hosting part of the process at Courtside Times (which would also provide exposure from the greater internet basketball community).
I love the BTF format and rules, by the way.
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