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APBRmetrics :: View topic - PbP data: Exactly How much time is on the Shot clock?
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PbP data: Exactly How much time is on the Shot clock?

 
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HoopTheory



Joined: 04 Aug 2010
Posts: 2
Location: san diego

PostPosted: Wed Aug 04, 2010 11:36 am    Post subject: PbP data: Exactly How much time is on the Shot clock? Reply with quote

Hey, I am a new poster here but really like the looks of this site and hope to contribute in the future. I am really interested in looking at issues related to offensive shot selection, efficiency and how they relate to the players on the court and the remaining time on the shot clock. In my efforts so far I have been using Ryan's play by play data (www.basketballgeek.com). I have noticed Ryan is a poster here, so thank you very much for this wonderful aggregation service.

However, the program that I curretnly have interpreting your spreadsheets is convinced that 5% of shots are being taken after the shot clock should have expired. I can only assume this is because certain events that reset the shot clock are not recorded. I would love to either know or be able to figure out exactly how much time is on the shot clock at all times. Does anyone have any insight into sources of data that might either keep track of the shot clock for me or would allow me to more accurately infer it? Or perhaps I am misusing your data, Ryan?
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jim



Joined: 01 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The original play-by-play logs are sometimes incomplete, incorrect, and/or inconsistent, so I'm guessing that's the cause of the shot clock discrepancies. Ryan did an excellent job, given the quality of the data he had to work with.
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Eli W



Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 402

PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One problem is that after a made shot, the game clock continues to run while the shot clock doesn't start until after the ball is inbounded. So the difference between the game clock at the time the shot was made and the game clock when the other team shoots can be greater than 24 seconds.
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DJE09



Joined: 05 May 2009
Posts: 148

PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2010 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Also, shots taken at the end of the shot clock can elapse time past 24s before the clock reset. You have 24s to shoot the ball, not make a basket, this can often add a couple seconds for a three.
Having said that, I'd expect Eli's point to be the usual way to get more than 24s between shot attempts, remember teams aren't usually stopping the clock regularly until the end of the game.

When you start thinking about it - there are a lot of minor scenarios (for example ball going out off the rim), that will use up game time (from the missed/made shot attempt signalling a shot clock reset) that will not be neccessarily logged in the PbP (although, I think my example of ball going out from shot would be logged as a team rebound for the defending team, and there would be a time associated with that "team rebound).

Of course, there is also the old doozy of human error to incorporate (ie scorers starting the shot clock late...).
Perhaps if you did an analysis of this you might see a home court bias???
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HoopTheory



Joined: 04 Aug 2010
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Location: san diego

PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jim wrote:
The original play-by-play logs are sometimes incomplete, incorrect, and/or inconsistent, so I'm guessing that's the cause of the shot clock discrepancies. Ryan did an excellent job, given the quality of the data he had to work with.


I promise I have absolutely no desire to impugn Ryan's work and am very grateful. It may be that what I hoping for is not out there and it may be that Ryan and I have different priorities about the importance of perfect knowledge of whats on the shot clock. The only origonal play-by-play logs I know of are the ones on espn.com and nba.com and it seems clear that Ryan had atleast some additional data. Maybe if people could point out all the raw sources of play by play data that are publicly available that would be great (unless I missed it, I feel like that is something that should be in the linkage thread).

Eli W wrote:
One problem is that after a made shot, the game clock continues to run while the shot clock doesn't start until after the ball is inbounded. So the difference between the game clock at the time the shot was made and the game clock when the other team shoots can be greater than 24 seconds.


An insightful point. Perhaps the best I can do is to add a few seconds (2?) to the shot clock after a made basket.

DJE09 wrote:
Also, shots taken at the end of the shot clock can elapse time past 24s before the clock reset. You have 24s to shoot the ball, not make a basket, this can often add a couple seconds for a three.
Having said that, I'd expect Eli's point to be the usual way to get more than 24s between shot attempts, remember teams aren't usually stopping the clock regularly until the end of the game.

When you start thinking about it - there are a lot of minor scenarios (for example ball going out off the rim), that will use up game time (from the missed/made shot attempt signalling a shot clock reset) that will not be neccessarily logged in the PbP (although, I think my example of ball going out from shot would be logged as a team rebound for the defending team, and there would be a time associated with that "team rebound).




Team rebounds are in the data.

But the point is relevant to made baskets. Do you have any idea if the listing for a made shot gives the time of the shot or the time of the made basket?


Eli W wrote:


Of course, there is also the old doozy of human error to incorporate (ie scorers starting the shot clock late...).
Perhaps if you did an analysis of this you might see a home court bias???



An interesting hypothesis I could look at if I assume that there were not fundamental differences between home and away that might drive the results (e.g. home team inbounds the ball more quickly would have the same effect as home team score board chief waits longer to start the clock).


I will recheck my code as soon as I get a chance (next couple days) but I seem to have 30+ seconds between team acquisition of the ball and the next event at dozens of points in the data. Perhaps the raw data was inconsistent in logging kicked balls etc... If there are no other data sources I will have to rethink how to handle these situations.
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