Below is a snapshot of the Web page as it appeared on 3/29/2011 (the last time our crawler visited it). This is the version of the page that was used for ranking your search results. The page may have changed since we last cached it. To see what might have changed (without the highlights), go to the current page.
Bing is not responsible for the content of this page.
APBRmetrics :: View topic - NCAA Statistical Plus/Minus 2008-2009
APBRmetrics Forum Index APBRmetrics
The statistical revolution will not be televised.
 
 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

NCAA Statistical Plus/Minus 2008-2009
Goto page 1, 2  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    APBRmetrics Forum Index -> General discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
DSMok1



Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Where the wind comes sweeping down the plains

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 2:52 pm    Post subject: NCAA Statistical Plus/Minus 2008-2009 Reply with quote

NCAA Statistical Plus/Minus 2008-2009

I realized this morning that Statistical Plus/Minus was an ideal tool for evaluating NCAA players. It does not have to deal with the issues related to competition like other box-score stats do--for I can force the team's totals to equal their efficiency margin, as calculated by Ken Pomeroy. I already have on hand every NCAA player's box scores, heights, and approximate ages from ESPN (I calculated Wins Produced for NCAA players, but realized there is no coherent way to adjust for opposition), so it wasn't hard to do.

I used the update for statistical plus/minus calculated by Neil Paine over on the Basketball-Reference Blog. Mostly, the calculation was straight-forward. The difference was that adjusting to force each team's total to match their efficiency differential was much more significant. I tweaked a couple of things, also--I scaled the NCAA minutes per game by 48/40, and scaled the ages upward also (so the mean and stdev would match NBA players). I did not use the latest iteration of statistical plus/minus (SPM), because I didn't need an age-squared term (age is positive, in general, in college...). Other than that, I just used the formula directly.

The standard error term was a puzzle (as Ilardi has noted). I ended up fitting an exponential curve to the data Rosenbaum provided to estimate the standard error term using minutes alone. (The result I had was stderr = 152.342min^(-0.76055)+1.954212.)

The stats are per 66.5 possessions (or 40 minutes of average-pace play).


Here is the Google Spreadsheet. I have discovered that Google Spreadsheets are a pain to work with! Just give me my Excel....


There are 3 basic ways to rate players with statistical plus/minus. First of all, the standard +/-. Of course, players with only a few minutes totally mess those numbers up. Secondly, there is the total points added by that player... probably the best overall rating. And finally, there is the confidence over average--the confidence (using the stderr of the measurement) that a given player is above average. That is how the sheet is arranged by default. Technically, a regressed SPM could also be compiled, but I haven't bothered.

Comments, everyone?

Here are the top 10 players by confidence over average:
1. Stephen Curry
2. DeJuan Blair
3. Lester Hudson
4. Ty Lawson
5. Blake Griffin
6. James Harden
7. Terrence Williams
8. Eric Maynor
9. Kenneth Faried
10. Tony Gaffney

and by total points contributed:
1. Stephen Curry
2. Lester Hudson
3. Blake Griffin
4. James Harden
5. Terrence Williams
6. DeJuan Blair
7. Ty Lawson
8. Talor Battle
9. Eric Maynor
10. Toney Douglas

EDIT: New Spreadsheet Update

I have updated the spreadsheet--the team adjustment is now applied to the individual players' SPM based on their minutes played. So if the adjustment is upward (like for a good team) the most boost will be given to the player with the most minutes. I used a recursive algorithm to force the adjusted SPM's to total the team's efficiency differential.

Spreadsheet HERE


Last edited by DSMok1 on Tue Oct 27, 2009 9:14 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
jmethven



Joined: 16 May 2005
Posts: 51

PostPosted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great stuff. I'd looked into calculating SPM for college players before for draft projections and was pleased with the results. Even though it's an NBA-derived regression, they certainly pass the laugh test.

Now the real trick would be developing a SPM projection system. Or for that matter, getting college APM data so there is something to compare to!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DSMok1



Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Where the wind comes sweeping down the plains

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 4:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In looking at the results, it occurs to me that the shot creation squared term (TSA^2) is a bit over-powered in college because of the outliers it produces from disparities in competition quality. Thus very good players in lower levels (Stephen Curry, Lester Martin) have somewhat over-inflated numbers because of the inordinate number of shots they took. All other terms are linear, so they are not effected in the same way by outliers like this. It seems that this is the (somewhat minor) flaw with using the NBA weights for SPM for the NCAA.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
tawtaw



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, that's pretty good. Hudson and Curry are great college players, though perhaps a bit overvalued by this metric. The kid from Morehead St. has some good all-around numbers, but I'm skeptical about a kid that scores 13pts per game against relatively weak competition being among the very best players .

Overall, really strong work.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Crow



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 811

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any interest in appending strength of schedule estimates (existing or your own) or adjusting the SPM's by SOS?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
DSMok1



Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Where the wind comes sweeping down the plains

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tawtaw wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty good. Hudson and Curry are great college players, though perhaps a bit overvalued by this metric. The kid from Morehead St. has some good all-around numbers, but I'm skeptical about a kid that scores 13pts per game against relatively weak competition being among the very best players .

Overall, really strong work.


Kenneth Faried? I thought the ranking was about right!

He averaged, in 30 minutes per game: 13.9 pts, 13 (!) rebounds, 1.9 blocks, 1.9 steals, and 1.4 assists. He was the third best rebounder in the NCAA. His per minute numbers look uncannily like DeJuan Blair's. His raw SPM was about 7.5, and he got a positive adjustment because Morehead St. was actually a pretty decent team, with a positive efficiency differential (they made the NCAA's) and he was the only decent player on the team. (Only 1 other player had a positive SPM at all!)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DSMok1



Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Where the wind comes sweeping down the plains

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crow wrote:
Any interest in appending strength of schedule estimates (existing or your own) or adjusting the SPM's by SOS?


They already are adjusted, by forcing the sum of the team's SPM's to their true adjusted efficiency differential (as calculated by Ken Pomeroy).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DLew



Joined: 13 Nov 2006
Posts: 224

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you're right in saying that the squared true shot attempts term is causing some funny things to happen because everything else, including the efficiency adjustment is linear. I think the solution to this would be to use a SPM formula that is entirely linear. I'm sure it would not be difficult for you to derive one, or for Neil to run his regression with the squared term removed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kevin Pelton
Site Admin


Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 979
Location: Seattle

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DSMok1 wrote:
Kenneth Faried? I thought the ranking was about right!

Shh! You're ruining the surprise of what I wrote about him for the College Basketball Prospectus.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
DSMok1



Joined: 05 Aug 2009
Posts: 608
Location: Where the wind comes sweeping down the plains

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DLew wrote:
I think you're right in saying that the squared true shot attempts term is causing some funny things to happen because everything else, including the efficiency adjustment is linear. I think the solution to this would be to use a SPM formula that is entirely linear. I'm sure it would not be difficult for you to derive one, or for Neil to run his regression with the squared term removed.


I'm not sure that's the best solution, because that term is actually highly significant in his regression. Other than a few slightly off players (the big-time scorers in the lower levels) I like the results alot.

One thing I was pondering, however. Should the adjustment to force the team's total SPM to equal its efficiency differential be applied equally to everyone? I don't think that's accurate. That means a player that played 200 minutes gets as much of the bump upward as a player that played 1200 minutes on a good team. With that in mind, I decided to create another version with the team adjustment applied linearly according to percentage of minutes played. That required a recursive algorithm, but the results look even better. Now, the bump up for good teams goes primarily to the starters, and the bench-sitters do not get their numbers bumped up for being on those teams.

I also was reviewing the standard error equation I derived from Rosenbaum's work. It does not behave properly for players with very low minutes, leading some of them to get high "confidence above average" ratings with, say, 5 minutes played. To correct this, I forced the stderr equation to go through 200 @ 5 minutes played. While arbitrary, it had the intended effect of throwing doubt on extremely high ratings with few minutes played.

The new and improved "Confidence above Average" ratings:

1. Stephen Curry
2. DeJuan Blair
3. Ty Lawson
4. Blake Griffin
5. Lester Hudson
6. Terrence Williams
7. James Harden
8. Toney Douglas
9. Eric Maynor
10. Danny Green

I think Danny Green was overlooked a lot last year...

And by total points contributed:
1. Stephen Curry
2. Terrence Williams
3. Blake Griffin
4. James Harden
5. Toney Douglas
6. Talor Battle
7. Lester Hudson
8. Ty Lawson
9. DeJuan Blair
10. Eric Maynor

Making that tweak on how the team adjustment was applied hurt Lester Hudson, because he played a lot of minutes and his team adjustment was downward (too much credit was handed out by SPM). Which, I think, is as it should be.

Kevin Pelton wrote:
Shh! You're ruining the surprise of what I wrote about him for the College Basketball Prospectus.


Faried is really good. And SPM doesn't even value defensive rebounding much!!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Qscience



Joined: 22 Jun 2009
Posts: 70
Location: Phoenix, Arizona

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scouting Lester Hudson I can never forget the game he put on against the Memphis Tigers. He had 3 NBA players double and triple teaming him and he still made them look silly at times.
He is going to be the next Eddie House once he gets his NBA shooting range down.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Crow



Joined: 20 Jan 2009
Posts: 811

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DSMok1 wrote:
Crow wrote:
Any interest in appending strength of schedule estimates (existing or your own) or adjusting the SPM's by SOS?


They already are adjusted, by forcing the sum of the team's SPM's to their true adjusted efficiency differential (as calculated by Ken Pomeroy).



Ok. You originally said just "efficiency margin, as calculated by Ken Pomeroy". I didn't check the link immediately or know you were using the adjusted column. But that's good. Thanks for the clarification. I'll look for updates next spring before the draft. This has been needed and you are filling a big gap.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
tawtaw



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 10:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DSMok1 wrote:
tawtaw wrote:
Yeah, that's pretty good. Hudson and Curry are great college players, though perhaps a bit overvalued by this metric. The kid from Morehead St. has some good all-around numbers, but I'm skeptical about a kid that scores 13pts per game against relatively weak competition being among the very best players .

Overall, really strong work.


Kenneth Faried? I thought the ranking was about right!

He averaged, in 30 minutes per game: 13.9 pts, 13 (!) rebounds, 1.9 blocks, 1.9 steals, and 1.4 assists. He was the third best rebounder in the NCAA. His per minute numbers look uncannily like DeJuan Blair's. His raw SPM was about 7.5, and he got a positive adjustment because Morehead St. was actually a pretty decent team, with a positive efficiency differential (they made the NCAA's) and he was the only decent player on the team. (Only 1 other player had a positive SPM at all!)


Admittedly I've never seen the kid play. But there is a huge difference in putting up good numbers in the Ohio Valley like Faried did, and the Big East, like Blair(although rebounding seems to translate well to different levels). And Morehead St. got beat really bad against the likes of Louisville(twice) and Vanderbilit, for an average loss of 26 points against the only BCS conference teams they played. There is a huge difference between an average team in the NCAA(like Morehead St.) and a really good team like Pitt.

I love that a guy with Faried's statistical profile is rated high, I just think that somewhere along the line the methodology is giving too much credit to small conference guys. Admittedly, it may not be too much credit. And overall I think the work is great.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bchaikin



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 687
Location: cleveland, ohio

PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...I just think that somewhere along the line the methodology is giving too much credit to small conference guys...

kenneth faried is the best rebounder in the ohio valley conference in some time, but a few of the best rebounders from the OVC have had a cup of coffee in the nba, including popeye jones and james singleton (both of murray state), and bob mccann (morehead state)...

actually faried's (6-8, 225 lb) and singleton's (6-8, 230 lb) college stats are fairly similar, faried the better rebounder with a better rate of steals, singleton a bit better shot blocker and the better overall shooter. faried was a bit better scorer per minute...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
tawtaw



Joined: 25 Jun 2008
Posts: 28
Location: Oregon

PostPosted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I don't doubt Faried can play in the NBA. When you talking about one of the top dozen players in the country though, I'd think we'd be talking about more than just a cup of coffee in the NBA. It'll be interesting to follow his progress this year for sure. I don't doubt that this metric has uncovered him as a bit of a hidden gem.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    APBRmetrics Forum Index -> General discussion All times are GMT - 5 Hours
Goto page 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group