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Jon Nichols
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 370
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Posted: Wed Aug 12, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: Exploring Shot Types at the Team Level |
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As some of you may already know, I've been doing a lot of work using the play-by-play data at BasketballValue, specifically with shot types. Today I decided to focus on just one team: the Los Angeles Lakers. I took at look at their shots at the per minute and per quarter levels. You can find the link here:
http://basketball-statistics.com/blog1/2009/08/13/exploring-shot-types-at-the-team-level-los-angeles-lakers/
Up next I was thinking about doing something similar for an individual player. In order for the sample sizes to be large enough, it would probably have to be a player with a ton of shot attempts such as Kobe Bryant. Does anyone have suggestions for looks at players that would be informative/interesting? |
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Harold Almonte
Joined: 04 Aug 2006 Posts: 616
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:31 am Post subject: |
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Can we say that teams's shot strategies start the game trying to be "fair" and towards the end are obligued to try the "optimum"? |
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Crow
Joined: 20 Jan 2009 Posts: 815
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:37 am Post subject: |
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Maybe another part is that players start the game thinking they can the mid-range well then they experience shooting 40% or less as most do and they trim back those attempts out of embarrassment of missing. And the defense has more energy early and the 3 ball is better covered.
As for target players maybe you could do Bryant, James, Pierce and maybe Ginobili or Carmelo. See how they compare.
Or Billups vs Parker.
Or D Howard vs Shaq.
Or Gasol vs Garnett.
Or Andre Miler vs Kidd.
Or just Odom. Or Roy. Or Iggy or Durant, Yao, R Lewis, Arenas when he was healthy, etc.
Last edited by Crow on Fri Aug 14, 2009 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Jon Nichols
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 370
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:57 pm Post subject: |
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I think those are both reasonable hypotheses, although it might be prudent to look at effective field goal percentage as the game elapses before we decide if anything is optimal. |
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DJE09
Joined: 05 May 2009 Posts: 148
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:11 pm Post subject: |
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Jon,
at 82games we see that LAL have 3 of top 30 2pt Jumper shooters (many of their inside shots will be your "mid-range", so my comparison of the data is not necc. accurate). I went to 30, cos Kobe is at 30, and he shoots lots of 2pt jumpers - despite not being as accurate as Ray Allen . So as a team they shoot these mid-rage shots "well". Therefore we might expect an elevated level of this type of shot, and used more as a weapon. So I am saying that LA tends to shoot more mid-range as they are better at it than most teams, and it is not a primary defensive strategy to deny open long 2.
In fact Fisher is 5th best in 2pt Jumper% on last season. Both he and Gasol are over 45%.
To offer an alternative hypothesis, we may see an increased frequency of mid-range shots initially - to create higher percentage shots later: Gasol shoots long 2s so defender has to come to him when he has ball at range, creating passing and driving opportunities later in game. Kobe and Fish also for that reason, and so they can potentially set up 3pt shots later as teams are focussed on denying the 2pt jumper as well - you can only take away so much that top players can do.
As evidence for this I would point out that all 3 play the first 8 minutes (usually) the period where there is a very high number / proportion of mid-range shots, coupled with the fact that this is not part of Odom's game so we see an increase in the number of inside shots when he checks in.
As a corollary to this I would point out that Houston is on record as saying they actively 'give' Kobe the Long 2 to deny his other (higher scoring value) options.
For 2pt Jumper % we can see Boston also has this as a strength, whilst Atl, Den, NYK and Phi are very weak (no player in top 40 - nb min 100 attepmts to qualify). Perhaps Den would be an interesting comparison? |
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DJE09
Joined: 05 May 2009 Posts: 148
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:36 pm Post subject: |
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Also, I just noticed, There seems to be a difference of about 1.5 shots per quarter between the halves. This is probably compounds the impact of 3s.
So the lakers seem to play the second half at a slower pace than the first? or perhaps they turn the ball over more in the second half or more likely they get foulled more ... (sorry Jon I know you are sick of me and my shooting fouls) |
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Jon Nichols
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 370
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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DJE09 wrote: | Jon,
at 82games we see that LAL have 3 of top 30 2pt Jumper shooters (many of their inside shots will be your "mid-range", so my comparison of the data is not necc. accurate). I went to 30, cos Kobe is at 30, and he shoots lots of 2pt jumpers - despite not being as accurate as Ray Allen . So as a team they shoot these mid-rage shots "well". Therefore we might expect an elevated level of this type of shot, and used more as a weapon. So I am saying that LA tends to shoot more mid-range as they are better at it than most teams, and it is not a primary defensive strategy to deny open long 2.
In fact Fisher is 5th best in 2pt Jumper% on last season. Both he and Gasol are over 45%.
To offer an alternative hypothesis, we may see an increased frequency of mid-range shots initially - to create higher percentage shots later: Gasol shoots long 2s so defender has to come to him when he has ball at range, creating passing and driving opportunities later in game. Kobe and Fish also for that reason, and so they can potentially set up 3pt shots later as teams are focussed on denying the 2pt jumper as well - you can only take away so much that top players can do.
As evidence for this I would point out that all 3 play the first 8 minutes (usually) the period where there is a very high number / proportion of mid-range shots, coupled with the fact that this is not part of Odom's game so we see an increase in the number of inside shots when he checks in.
As a corollary to this I would point out that Houston is on record as saying they actively 'give' Kobe the Long 2 to deny his other (higher scoring value) options.
For 2pt Jumper % we can see Boston also has this as a strength, whilst Atl, Den, NYK and Phi are very weak (no player in top 40 - nb min 100 attepmts to qualify). Perhaps Den would be an interesting comparison? |
Good points. Denver, Atlanta, or maybe someone like the Magic may be an interesting follow-up study. |
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Jon Nichols
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 370
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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DJE09 wrote: | Also, I just noticed, There seems to be a difference of about 1.5 shots per quarter between the halves. This is probably compounds the impact of 3s.
So the lakers seem to play the second half at a slower pace than the first? or perhaps they turn the ball over more in the second half or more likely they get foulled more ... (sorry Jon I know you are sick of me and my shooting fouls) |
If I had to guess I would say pace for the entire league slows down as the game progresses. |
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Ryan J. Parker
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 711 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:22 pm Post subject: |
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It would be interesting to see those graphs in terms of % of shots taken. _________________ I am a basketball geek. |
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DJE09
Joined: 05 May 2009 Posts: 148
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:28 pm Post subject: |
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Has anybody studied change in pace in-game?
Ryan, you can eye-ball the charts for the proportions, but without the shooting fouls the proprtions (of total shots) would be skewed. |
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Ryan J. Parker
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 711 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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You must have better eye-balls than me. _________________ I am a basketball geek. |
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Jon Nichols
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 370
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Ryan J. Parker wrote: | It would be interesting to see those graphs in terms of % of shots taken. |
Here you go, Ryan:
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Ryan J. Parker
Joined: 23 Mar 2007 Posts: 711 Location: Raleigh, NC
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:17 pm Post subject: |
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Very cool. Thanks!! _________________ I am a basketball geek. |
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schtevie
Joined: 18 Apr 2005 Posts: 412
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:35 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting picture. My instant reaction is a question. Assuming that mid-range shots suck on average, are the Lakers taking a lot of unforced sucky shots at the beginning of games or are opposing defenses compelling these somehow by better defending the 3pt line early on?
If you have the time and inclination, could you overlay eFG% or better yet the TS% for each type of shot? |
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Jon Nichols
Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 370
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Posted: Fri Aug 14, 2009 12:42 pm Post subject: |
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schtevie wrote: | Very interesting picture. My instant reaction is a question. Assuming that mid-range shots suck on average, are the Lakers taking a lot of unforced sucky shots at the beginning of games or are opposing defenses compelling these somehow by better defending the 3pt line early on?
If you have the time and inclination, could you overlay eFG% or better yet the TS% for each type of shot? |
I believe my next post (perhaps around Sunday) will be all about effective field goal percentage. I may do it on just the Lakers, but I'll probably look at the league as a whole.
Also, one thing to keep in mind: my term "midrange" can be a bit tricky, because it also includes post shots such as fades, hooks, and bank shots. |
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