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The Pot Calling the Kettle Black
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Dan Rosenbaum



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
Posts: 541
Location: Greensboro, North Carolina

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 12:17 am    Post subject: The Pot Calling the Kettle Black Reply with quote

At long last here is a working paper version of my paper with Dave Lewin that we presented at the NESSIS conference at the end of September. As we mention in the acknowledgments, this paper has benefited greatly from comments from many of you. And this is still a working paper, so we would love to hear reactions to the paper. Feel free to post your comments here or e-mail them to me. Please let me apologize in advance if I am not able to respond quickly to comments, but each of my three jobs right now keep me pretty busy (and that doesn't include my two year-old).

http://www.uncg.edu/eco/rosenbaum/nessis.pdf

The Pot Calling the Kettle Black: Are NBA Statistical Models More Irrational than “Irrational” Decision-Makers?

Abstract
Recent research suggests that “statistics and analysis” typically lead to better decisions than “intuition and human intellect” in diverse areas such as choosing which students to admit to college and assessing mortality risks among cancer patients. Sports economics, with its rich data and abundant decisions to analyze has provided a fertile laboratory for studies of the efficiency of decision-making. In fact, researchers of the National Basketball Association (NBA) have used statistical models of player productivity to make strong claims about the “rationality” of NBA decision-makers. Yet these statistical models have rarely been subjected to any rigorous examination of their ability to forecast the future. We examine how well several player productivity metrics, including (a) John Hollinger’s Player Efficiency Rating, (b) Wages of Wins Wins Produced, and (c) the NBA Efficiency metric, do in predicting future team wins and future player productivity (the latter as measured by plus/minus statistics). In addition to a comprehensive examination of the player productivity metrics used by NBA statistical analysts, this paper is the first academic presentation of plus/minus statistics. Our findings provide a counterweight to much of prevailing literature and suggest that models that assume simplistic NBA decision-making often outperform more sophisticated statistical models.
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mikez



Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even ignoring its discussion of the "Is Wins Produced Flawed" question, this is an important paper and a significant contribution to the community. Thanks guys.

(Also thanks Cavs, for allowing them to continue to publish despite the work they're doing for the team.)

-MZ
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Westy



Joined: 15 Nov 2007
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Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Pot Kettle Black Reply with quote

Hmm, I'm very interested to see the response this paper receives.

With the post from TrueHoop, you can certainly anticipate it will have some readers.

What is the plan for future publication (i.e. how long will it remain a 'working' paper)?
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Dan Rosenbaum



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My guess is that the reaction will be less than you think. The issues here are subtle and technical, which makes them easy to ignore. There is the potential for a really interesting and substantive discussion to take place, but based upon past experience I highly doubt that is what will take place. But we'll see. Hopefully I am wrong.

I also want to point out that Berri should get some credit for the way in which his work has motivated deeper thinking about how to evaluate players. I sincerely mean that.
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Harold Almonte



Joined: 04 Aug 2006
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's true. A lot of detractors think like his book is some kind of Davinci code of basketball metrics, some followers think it's really the apocriphal gospels, but it's just science procedures from different hiphotesis that needed to be tested. I think this paper is the test.
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NickS



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Rosenbaum wrote:
I also want to point out that Berri should get some credit for the way in which his work has motivated deeper thinking about how to evaluate players. I sincerely mean that.


I've said this as well, and equally sincerely. I think that DeanO and Kevin Pelton are correct that it's unfortunate if discussions of player ratings swamp other APBRMetric topics, but I think that WoW has sparked a number of interesting questions.
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Eli W



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dan Rosenbaum wrote:
My guess is that the reaction will be less than you think. The issues here are subtle and technical, which makes them easy to ignore. There is the potential for a really interesting and substantive discussion to take place, but based upon past experience I highly doubt that is what will take place. But we'll see. Hopefully I am wrong.


Unfortunately it looks like Dan was right. Here's Berri: "It is essentially the same as the powerpoints. And it has the same problems. Go back and read the thread on the Shane Battier post. I have nothing to add to what I said then."

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/replacing-a-dream/#comment-50391
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HoopStudies



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eli W wrote:
Dan Rosenbaum wrote:
My guess is that the reaction will be less than you think. The issues here are subtle and technical, which makes them easy to ignore. There is the potential for a really interesting and substantive discussion to take place, but based upon past experience I highly doubt that is what will take place. But we'll see. Hopefully I am wrong.


Unfortunately it looks like Dan was right. Here's Berri: "It is essentially the same as the powerpoints. And it has the same problems. Go back and read the thread on the Shane Battier post. I have nothing to add to what I said then."

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/replacing-a-dream/#comment-50391


My take on Dan's comment was that it should spark substantive discussion among us.

Read it carefully. I can't say that I "got it" in Boston and need to read the paper to really understand what is going on. I'd think that everyone here would have to as well.
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Eli W



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoopStudies wrote:
My take on Dan's comment was that it should spark substantive discussion among us.


Could be. I took the "past experience" part to be referring to Berri. Either way, it looks like I spoke too soon. Berri has followed up with some additional comments on the paper.
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Harold Almonte



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What they say about Dan including the +/- stuff in the end could be valid, it hurts a bit the paper, but it's his paper.
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Dan Rosenbaum



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here apparently is the argument that Berri has against what we are doing in our paper.

Dave Berri wrote:
You cannot use residuals to evaluate a model. Rosenbaum claims that the residual from a team efficiency model is the same as the “team adjustment” used in Wins Produced. It is not. The team adjustment is not a residual. And you cannot, and I repeat you cannot, use a residual to evaluate a model. Team efficeincy regressed on points scored does not result in a model that explains very much of team efficiency. To say that with the residual the model can explain efficiency is meaningless. Any collection of independent variables plus the residual would explain a dependent variable. So Rosenbaum’s basic approach is incorrect.

This is a really bad argument. There are any number of ways to show that.

(1) Berri states that "you cannot use a residual to evaluate a model." In other words, you cannot construct a model using the residual in period T and evaluate how well that model explains the dependent variable in period T. I completely agree with that point and we make that point in the paper. But that is not what we are doing. We are constructing a model in period T with the residual in period T and using that to predict the dependent variable in period T+1, T+2, or T+3. If there is an obvious problem with doing that, Berri should be able to easily show the math behind the problem or point to a textbook or economics paper that shows what is wrong with doing this. Berri has never done so, so his argument boils down to "trust me, because I am right." And in a practical sense, there is no problem here. If it is summer 2007 and the GM is trying to predict performance in 2007-08, the residual from 2006-07 is known, so there is no problem with him using that to form predictions about 2007-08. Berri is using a straw man argument by implying that somehow we are somehow using the 2007-08 residual here, which we clearly are not doing.

(2) Berri is also using a residual to create Wins Produced. Look at equation (A.1) in the paper. Once Berri aggregates Wins Produced for a team, he gets PTS(T) from points for individual players, PTS(O) from the opposing team, and POSS(T) and POSS(O) from a combination box score stats from individual players and the opposing team. But POSS(T) minus POSS(O) does not add up to zero like it needs to in (A.1), so Berri estimates team rebounds by "add[iing] together the constant term and error term [my italics] for each team" (WoW, p. 243). The "residual" that he uses to construct team rebounds results in POSS(T) minus POSS(O) equaling zero. I have no objection to what Berri is doing, but it he can use a "residual" in creating Wins Produced, it seems odd to say there is problem with someone else using that same approach.

(3) In the appendix of the paper, we describe how each of the team adjustments can be constructed without ever using a "residual." Adapting Berri's treatment of assists allows any metric to have a team adjustment that is exactly equal to the dreaded "residual," but is constructed simply by allocating team statistics to players in the same manner Berri does. It may be a different set of statistics, but otherwise it is the same as what Berri is doing.

(4) Alternate Win Score is derived in precisely the same manner as Wins Produced (although rounded values are used like in Win Score), except that instead of assuming different production functions for own team possession production and opponent possession production, the same production function is assumed for both and alpha is assumed to be 0.7 (whereas Berri assumes it is 0 in one case and 1 in another). Berri never defends his assumption that how possessions are produced on one side of the court is completely different than how they are produced on the other side of the court. Possessions are produced in a joint production function involving all ten players on the court at any one time, and it is hard to justify why that production function depends on what side of the court the ball happpens to be on.

Alternative Win Score is the same as Wins Produced, except that coefficients on missed shots (field goals and free throws) and rebounds are altered. It is grounded in theory every bit as much as Wins Produced. There is no need to resort to a "residual" to create Alternate Win Score. Alternate Win Score performs dramatically better than Wins Produced. The difference in correlations with the given outcome (team wins or adjusted plus/minus) is statistically significant at the 4% level in on comparison and 0.3% or less in the other four comparisons. These empirical results strongly support the finding that Wins Produced is theoretically flawed.

Quote:
And one more point (which I also made before), Rosenbaum shrugs off the inability of his plus-minus model to forecast. But since that is how he is evaluating all models (even if his evaluation is very, very flawed) it is odd that his model does not come close to passing his one standard.

Wins Produced performs poorly both with the team wins outcome and the adjusted plus/minus outcome. So even ignoring the adjusted plus/minus results, Wins Produced performs very poorly. Measurement error or "noise" in a dependent variable is not a problem as long as (1) the "noise" is independent of the independent variable and (2) the "noise" isn't so great that it eliminates all of the power of any hypothesis tests from the regression. Both of the conditions are met in this case, so there is no problem with using adjusted plus/minus as a barometer.

Using the one-year-at-a-time version of adjusted plus/minus as a predictor is a separate question that has nothing to do with its validity as a barometer. I got several suggestions to remove the adjusted plus/minus as a predictor stuff from the paper, but I did not think that was a good idea. It is not good practice to hide results that are inconvenient, especially in this case where the inconvenience comes from folks misunderstanding of a widely known fact about "noisy" dependent variables. That is probably not something that typically comes up in undergraduate econometrics courses, so that might be why Berri does not appear to understand this point. [Ironically, it was Dave - an undergraduate - who had me insert a footnote on this point in the paper.]

Finally, this criticism of adjusted plus/minus would be even more true of using team wins as a predictor of player value. According to Berri's mistaken argument, this somehow would invalidate team wins as a barometer.
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Dan Rosenbaum



Joined: 03 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 12, 2007 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

HoopStudies wrote:
Eli W wrote:
Dan Rosenbaum wrote:
My guess is that the reaction will be less than you think. The issues here are subtle and technical, which makes them easy to ignore. There is the potential for a really interesting and substantive discussion to take place, but based upon past experience I highly doubt that is what will take place. But we'll see. Hopefully I am wrong.


Unfortunately it looks like Dan was right. Here's Berri: "It is essentially the same as the powerpoints. And it has the same problems. Go back and read the thread on the Shane Battier post. I have nothing to add to what I said then."

http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/12/12/replacing-a-dream/#comment-50391


My take on Dan's comment was that it should spark substantive discussion among us.

Read it carefully. I can't say that I "got it" in Boston and need to read the paper to really understand what is going on. I'd think that everyone here would have to as well.

No, I was referring to Berri. In this light it is useful to note the contrast between Berri's dismissal of this forum and Justin Wolfers' praise of it.

jwolfers wrote:
With apologies for being behind the times on this discussion, I just wanted send a quick note to say that this discussion thread has struck me as a particularly careful and well-informed assessment of my research with Joe Price.

There are obviously quite subtle statistical issues at play here, and also some difficult issues of interpretation, and folks here seem to have been admirably careful in actually reading the paper and thinking about the relevant statistical, economic and basketball issues.

Also, I wanted to say thanks to the folks in this forum for contributing quite significantly to my understanding of basketball statistics over the years. I have been a longtime lurker here, and have found the commentary here to be incredibly useful.

Justin Wolfers

If you look up the Justin's Google Scholar cites, his articles add up to over 1,500 cites with 10 papers with 20 or more cites. Berri's total comes to about 200 cites (over a longer career) with only 1 paper with 20 or more cites. Berri is a very solid economist, but Justin is a superstar in the profession.

As I said earlier, Berri should get credit for sparking conversation. And he has done a fabulous job translating the findings of the economics literature to the masses. But I still think his avoidance of this forum speaks volumes when folks like Wolfers seem to find some value here.
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Dan Rosenbaum



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Berri makes claims like this all of the time.

Quote:
I understand your frustration. There is a proper third party. And that is a peer-reviewed refereed journal. Dan can talk about this paper at the APBR forum forever. But that is not a proper blind reviewed forum. My sense is that most people posting there do not understand econometrics well enough to evaluate his argument. Plus, it is not blind review. As JC Bradbury told Dan when he was posting anonymously here — submit your paper to an economics journal and let other economists evaluate your work properly. That is how this should be done. In fact, that is what should have happened a long time ago. I have a real problem with releasing working papers to a crowd and then declaring, before any academic has seen your work, that you have discovered something. That is not how academic research should be done (or in most places, is done).

It should be noted that Berri has never published a paper detailing the Wins Produced method in a peer-reviewed journal. Books and book chapters are not peer-reviewed in the same way that peer-reviewed journals are. And it is just not true that academics don't make working papers available to the general public. Papers from the NBER Working Paper series (where Justin and Joe Price first made their race-study available to the public) probably get as much attention from academics and especially policymakers as the entire collection of peer-reviewed journals combined. Many high profile academic papers accumulate half or more of their cites before they are ever published. A paper of mine with my advisor at Northwestern was cited more than 100 times before it was ever published. Getting published in a good peer-reviewed journal is a critical validation for an academic, but a lot of times it is somewhat of an afterthought. The real impact of a paper often comes long before a paper is published.

I think this issue of putting work out in the public before it is fully baked is a BIG part of why Berri and I have butted heads. This kind of thing is fairly common in the high profile policy areas in applied micro-econometrics where I have made my mark, but my sense is that sports economists tend to keep close hold on their papers until they are published. And I pushed the envelope even further by presenting results in a forum like this, which I think infuriated Berri. And he is not completely unjustified in feeling this was unfair, because often posts here on something this complex lack the detail and context to give Berri a chance to respond to it.

I like working out loud, even though it is dangerous, because it is easy to look like a fool when you haven't throught things through enough. But the other side of the coin is that working out loud allows for collaboration with a large number of people in real time and that can be a great way to make advances, especially when a lot of the folks who have thought the hardest about issues are non-academics.

Berri criticizes the econometrics ability of many of the folks here and some of that is legitimate. But I have also tended to find that many folks here have remarkably good econometrics intution - better than a lot of Ph.D economists. And I think I am somewhat of an authority on this in that I have taught applied micro-econometrics at the undergraduate, MA, and Ph.D levels and for the past decade I have been interacting with the superstars in the area of applied micro-econometrics. My publication record is mediocre, but I have a good reputation for knowing what I am talking about in the area of applied micro-econometrics. That is how I landed this plum position at the White House Council of Economic Advisers. (It certainly wasn't my political views.)

But I think Berri immediately got angry with me for working out loud. Then he assumed that I ghost-wrote Roland Beech's review of Wages of Wins, which I did not. But at that point, he got his guard up and it was hard to engage him publicly or privately in any substantive discussion of Wins Produced. In desperation I have tried posting anonymously a couple times, because that seemed to be the only way to get a substantive response. That was stupid on my part on many levels, but I have to laugh when I get accused of "promoting my own work" anonymously. I get WAY too much attention and hardly need any more; it didn't even cross my mind that posting anonymously would end up being interpreted that way. With my blinders on I was just trying to engage Berri.

But that is no excuse. Berri wanted to have this discussion on his terms and I should have respected that. In the long-term that would have led to a healthier relationship and more substantive discussion.
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Analyze This



Joined: 17 May 2005
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like the pot calling the kettle black because it's not your typical I have found a metric and will defend it to dead article. You look critical to some metrics including your own and try to be objective.

However I find the division between "irrational" traditional decision makers and "new"decision makers/statistical analysts a bit to strong. I think that you have a third party namely the nba decision maker who uses his traditional experience/intuition on one hand and stat analysis/metrics on the other hand while he realizes the strenghts and limitations of the metrics he uses and the context he needs to see it within and also the advantages and shortcomings of the more traditional view. I think that if you combine that traditional approach with what the best of new stat analysis has to offer and you place it in the right context, you see what it tells you and what not, that you are a better decision maker than when a) you only lean on the traditional way of evaluating talent or b) you only use statistical analysis to judge players productivity.

With the article you also risk that people who are against stat analyis will use your words to attack stat analysis as a source. They can say look the analyst himself shows that complicated stat models are sometimes less accurate than an easy/ traditional way of looking at it. You see this stat anlysis is worthless. Of course that is not what your article is about but in a world were slogans mostly prevail above text with nuance it could happen. However that should never stop you to write a critical article like you did. After basketball on paper it was the best thing i read.
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Last edited by Analyze This on Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:49 am; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Rosenbaum



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Analyze This wrote:
I like the pot calling the kettle black because it's not your typical I have found a metric and will defend it to dead article. You look critical to some metrics including your own. However I find the division between "irrational" traditional decision makers and "new"decision makers/statistical analysts a bit to strong. I think that you have a third party namely the nba decision maker who uses his traditional experience/intuition on one hand and stat analysis/metrics on the other hand while he realizes the strenghts and limitations of the metrics he uses and the context he needs to see it within and also the advantages and shortcomings of the more traditional view. I think that if you combine that traditional approach with what the best of nba analysis has to offer and you place it in the right context, you see what it tells you and what not, that you are a better decision maker than when a) you only lean on the traditional way of evaluating talent or b) you only use statistical analysis to judge players productivity.

Exactly. You are preaching to the choir on this point.
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