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APBRmetrics :: View topic - WPOY Antoine Walker or Adam Morrison
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WPOY Antoine Walker or Adam Morrison
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tmansback



Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 129

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 3:09 am    Post subject: WPOY Antoine Walker or Adam Morrison Reply with quote

I'm not a Bobcat fan. I'm friends with a couple though. You can say there pretty down on the prospect of Adam Morrison. The term worst player in the NBA has often been said. I said there no way he could have been worse than Antoine Walker. Looking at it though its a close call. Both seem to have been historically horrible. Who wins this year worse player in the league award. Antoine Walker or Adam Morrison. Perhaps there is someone else that you think deserves the honors. Only criteria is you have to have played atleast 1000 minutes.
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gabefarkas



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 1313
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scalabrine.
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jeffpotts77



Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Cambridge, MA

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll second Gabe's vote for Scalabrine. After the season Boston has had, can't they at least have this measely award?
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Neil Paine



Joined: 13 Oct 2005
Posts: 774
Location: Atlanta, GA

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, I guess there's a distinction to be made between "worst player" and "player who most damaged his team's chances of winning". Scal is a horrible player, but he only used 10.8% of Celtic possessions when on the floor; Walker and Morrison each used upwards of 21%, and they kept shooting despite the fact that their offensive ratings were actually significantly lower than Scalabrine's (assuming that's even possible). So Walker/Morrison's bricklaying actually did a lot more damage to their teams than Scalabrine's all-around sh*ttiness did to Boston. And they both managed to be even more overpaid (especially Walker) than Scal as well, which is a real feat in and of itself.
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Jim Raynor



Joined: 11 Dec 2005
Posts: 65
Location: New Jersey

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm shocked at how bad Walker has been this season. He's always been an inefficient volume shooter, who was overrated in his younger years and probably wouldn't have sniffed a single All-Star game if people looked beyond per-game stats. That said, his PER (which still overrates him because it doesn't consider defense, or how he affects his team) has been above-average in his better seasons, and around decent for the last several. Come on, single digit PER? Career low TS%?

This guy's only 30. What happened to him?
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Mike G



Joined: 14 Jan 2005
Posts: 3604
Location: Hendersonville, NC

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are players who went at least 1500 minutes and were less productive than Antoine Walker. Several are known as 'defensive specialists'. Listed in order of minutes played, and showing my own overall rating, as well as Sco-Reb-Ast rates.

T per36 rates tm Sco Reb Ast
15.0 Bruce Bowen SA 8 4 2
15.4 Adam Morrison Cha 12 4 2
17.7 Rasual Butler NO 12 5 1
16.5 Steve Blake Den 8 3 6
14.7 Trenton Hassell Min 8 4 3
17.4 Eric Snow Cle 6 4 7
17.8 Juan Dixon Tor 13 3 2
9.8 Jason Collins NJ 3 7 1
18.4 Antoine Walker Mia 12 7 2
16.1 Martell Webster Por 11 5 1
16.9 Maurice Evans LAL 11 5 1
16.9 Quinton Ross LAC 8 4 2
14.0 Dahntay Jones Mem 11 3 1
16.6 Jarvis Hayes Was 10 5 1
15.2 Sebastian Telfair Bos 10 3 4
17.8 Kendrick Perkins Bos 7 10 2
15.0 Marko Jaric Min 8 4 2
15.8 Brian Skinner Mil 6 9 1
18.3 Johan Petro Sea 10 8 1
15.6 Gary Payton Mia 8 3 4

I think there are many players worse than Walker and Morrison who didn't play many minutes. Both these players were pressed into service, perhaps, by relatively thin lineups. There weren't any Heat players who could have been better at filling Walker's minutes.
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KD



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim Raynor wrote:


This guy's only 30. What happened to him?


Never learned to shoot, never learned footwork, never developed any moves, never worked on his body. The guy has spent more time in the gym than anyone you can think of, but it's always playing basketball. No drills, no workouts, no one-on-one tutoring. His fall off reminds me of George McGinnis', except that Antoine wasn't nearly as good to begin with.
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Flint



Joined: 25 Mar 2007
Posts: 112

PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2007 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I will chip in the WOW perspective. His rating is -.175, where +.100 is the average player. He is as far below that average benchmark as Shawn Marion is above it. I dont think there is any question that Morrison is the worst player in the league to play significant minutes. Walker is bad too, but not as bad.

I dont know quite what the effect is in terms of wins. Berri could calculate it to his own satisfaction quite easily though. Just eyeballing the numbers it looks like Morrison's presence on the court may have cost the Bobcats at least ten wins, relative to replacing him with an average player.

If they do decide to bench him next year, and find a reasonably productive replacement, it would be very interesting to see how much better they get.
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tmansback



Joined: 12 Aug 2005
Posts: 129

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Morrison was truly bad. He can look at a few guys and hope he can have a similar career in the future. Glen Rice and Allan Houston were also horrible there first seasons. Still a player that was considered a potential ROY favorite to be considered the worst player in the league is shocking. Despite as bad as he was I think I still like his chances of finding a place in the league over JJ Redick.

Antoine Walker. What can you say. You know he is horrible. The league is probably aware how bad he is. However before you know it he comes into a game makes 3 big shots and your standing wondering. As bad as Walker is he still finds value because he'll make a shot or have a game that will keep him in the rotation.
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KD



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 163

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tmansback wrote:
Morrison was truly bad. He can look at a few guys and hope he can have a similar career in the future. Glen Rice and Allan Houston were also horrible there first seasons. Still a player that was considered a potential ROY favorite to be considered the worst player in the league is shocking. Despite as bad as he was I think I still like his chances of finding a place in the league over JJ Redick.

Antoine Walker. What can you say. You know he is horrible. The league is probably aware how bad he is. However before you know it he comes into a game makes 3 big shots and your standing wondering. As bad as Walker is he still finds value because he'll make a shot or have a game that will keep him in the rotation.


Those banked-in threes ...
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jeffpotts77



Joined: 18 Feb 2005
Posts: 150
Location: Cambridge, MA

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

While on the subject of Walker -- a lightening rod 'round these parts -- it's hard for me to believe this actually happened:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAC20010117.html
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bchaikin



Joined: 27 Jan 2005
Posts: 689
Location: cleveland, ohio

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

it's hard... to believe this actually happened:

but not these:

19971104-bos/nyk - 2/15 shooting
19971223-bos/cha - 3/21
19980210-bos/den - 5/22
19990324-bos/min - 1/14
19990409-bos/phi - 1/11 with 4 TOs
20000215-bos/uta - 6/19 with 7 TOs
20010108-bos/por - 7/28 with 8 TOs
20020205-bos/cha - 7/21 with 9 TOs
20050216-bos/sea - 7/21 with 7 TOs
20030131-bos/det - 1/15
20031106-dal/tor - 6/20 with 9 TOs

some of his memorable triple doubles:

20040114-dal/phi - 4/19 shooting, 17 rebs, 13 ast, 11 pts
20010115-bos/min - 6/26 shooting, 12 rebs, 12 ast, 20 pts, 5 TOs
20040112-dal/nyk - 6/18 shooting, 12 rebs, 11 ast, 14 pts
20021122-bos/atl - 9/30 shooting, 11 rebs, 10 ast, 27 pts, 4 TOs

he did though have a 49 pt game on 19980107 (bos/was)....

actually his overall shooting in 06-07 was about the same (less than 1% worse) to what it was in 02-03 and 04-05 when he was scoring 20 pts/g with boston and atlanta...
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mateo82



Joined: 06 Aug 2005
Posts: 211

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeffpotts77 wrote:
While on the subject of Walker -- a lightening rod 'round these parts -- it's hard for me to believe this actually happened:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAC20010117.html


Walker only getting 5 rebounds in 45 minutes? I believe it Wink

My vote goes to Michael Ruffin. If he doesn't play enough for your taste then it gets trickier for me. If we give it a minimum minutes of 15mpg and 40 games played, i'm not sure. Almost all of the worst scorers are big men. Jason Collins, Joel Pryzbilla and Desagana Diop come to mind. But they have a good defensive reputation at least so maybe they're safe. Lorenzen Wright is probably next, and he's a guy who you can't say a good thing about. Still, Jason Collins scoring is just so bad that his defensive reputation might not be enough.

Among non-big men my vote is Speedy Claxton.
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AJax



Joined: 22 Jan 2006
Posts: 49
Location: The Prairies of the Great Middle West

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait, wait, we're forgetting a serious contender: Desmond Mason.

He's the only player to place in the top 10 of player losses three years straight. This year he finished second to Raymond Felton of Charlotte; Felton was bad but had triple the assist ratio of Mason, with a lower turnover rate and far better free throw shooting.

In terms of "worst value," Mason made 6.5 million in 05-06 and 7.3 million this year. At least Morrison and Scalabrine are giving you terrible low-efficiency seasons on the cheap.
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gabefarkas



Joined: 31 Dec 2004
Posts: 1313
Location: Durham, NC

PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2007 5:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jeffpotts77 wrote:
While on the subject of Walker -- a lightening rod 'round these parts -- it's hard for me to believe this actually happened:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/SAC20010117.html


Same here. Only five turnovers?!?
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