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Dan Rosenbaum
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 541 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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Posted: Wed Mar 14, 2007 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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John Quincy wrote: | Interesting. So you think this is likely a case where the correlations aren't transitive. |
They are two different correlations - one at the individual level and one at the team level. Transitivity doesn't apply here. |
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Dan Rosenbaum
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 541 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:12 am Post subject: |
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Here is an exchange over at the Wages of Wins blog that I think neatly encapsulates the essense of Dave Berri.
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/nba-babble-babble/#comments
After having it pointed out for the umpteenth time that the team adjustment is critical in Wins Produced explaining team wins, Berri pens a several thousand word post that manages to cover no new ground on that issue, except to offer yet another ad hominem attack of yours truly.
Then a poster (not me) asks a very simple and straightforward question.
Quote: | so why do you have the team adjustment at all then? are you saying that Wins Produced without the team adjustment still estimates 97% of team wins? |
A second poster (not me) makes a similar point.
Quote: | Wins Produced is not as accurate at the team level without the team adjustment. As with the above commenter I would like to know exactly how big this difference is. It may be quite small in which case I would be curious why the team adjustment was included, but it would clearly refute the critics. Either way, I would like Mr. Berri to stop quoting the same correlations over and over, and address the question of how well Wins Produced WITHOUT a team adjustment predicts TEAM WINS. |
And so what is Berri's response?
Another 150 words that conspicuously leave out one key element - the answer to the questions posed by these two posters.
Berri has had an entire book, hundreds of posts, and many other opportunities to answer a very simple question. How much of team wins does Wins Produced without a team adjustment explain?
The silence is deafening.
And since how well Wins Produced explains team wins is the only empirical evidence offered to date (by Berri) to suggest that Wins Produced is better than ANY other metric, this is a pretty important issue.
And this is just one really simple issue of many that have been brought up about Wins Produced. But if Berri is going to go to such lengths to obfuscate on such a simple issue, it is really hard to hold out any hope that he has any intentions of ever seriously discussing other thornier issues. |
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Mike G
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 3613 Location: Hendersonville, NC
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Well Dan, he's already had this book printed; what's he going to do -- recall it?
And what did we do before we had the word 'obfuscate'? Wiktionary lists synonyms 'confuse' and 'muddle'; and this:
"To deliberately make more confusing in order to conceal the truth.
Before leaving the scene, the murderer set a fire to obfuscate any evidence of his or her identity. "
I guess 'obfuscation happens' -- but generally over less than murder. _________________ `
36% of all statistics are wrong |
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Eli W
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:02 am Post subject: |
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OK, I used Berri's formula for estimating Wins Produced without using a team adjustment. This is basically Win Score per minute, adjusted for position (I used the position designations from Doug's Stats, which likely vary from those used by Berri), multiplied by 1.621 and added to 0.104. This gives an estimate of Wins Produced per 48 minutes. I then converted this into estimated Wins Produced by multiplying by minutes and divinding by 48. Using 2003-04 data, I summed estimated WP by team to get an estimate of team wins. Then I looked at how much these corresponded to actual team wins, and compared this to how Wins Produced with a team adjustment corresponded to actual team wins (this is found in a chart on page 110 of the Wages of Wins).
For WP with a team adjustment the average error was 1.67 wins, and the correlation of summed WP to actual team wins was 0.982.
For estimated WP without a team adjustment the average error was 7.10 wins, and the correlation of summed estimated WP to actual team wins was 0.721.
Here's the data:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pLWcAQTLnESuYe23RjQEFUg _________________ Eli W. (formerly John Quincy)
CountTheBasket.com |
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Dan Rosenbaum
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 541 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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John Quincy wrote: | Berri argues against that in this [url=http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/02/25/introducing-pawsmin-–-and-a-defense-of-box-score-statistics/]post[/url], though he just gives the correlation between position-adjusted Win Score per minute and WP48 with a team adjustment (0.994), rather than between position-adjusted Win Score per minute and team wins. |
I have done some checking, and here is what I get when I look at this correlation.
CORRELATIONS OF VARIOUS WINS PRODUCED/WIN SCORE MEASURES
Here are the correlations for various variants of Wins Produced and Win Score. The first set of correlations is weighted by minutes played. The second set of correlations is not weighted. This is for the 1993-94 through 2004-05 period examined in Wages of Wins and everything is measured per 48 minutes.
WP1PT = Wins Produced with a position and team adjustment
WP1P = Wins Produced with only a position adjustment
WS1P = Win Score with only a positon adjustment
WP1 = Wins Produced without a position or team adjustment
Code: | WEIGHTED CORRELATIONS (n=5771)
| wp1pt wp1p ws1p wp1
-------------+------------------------------------
wp1pt | 1.0000
wp1p | 0.9766 1.0000
ws1p | 0.9739 0.9969 1.0000
wp1 | 0.8207 0.8376 0.8350 1.0000
UNWEIGHTED CORRELATIONS (n=5771)
| wp1pt wp1p ws1p wp1
-------------+------------------------------------
wp1pt | 1.0000
wp1p | 0.9915 1.0000
ws1p | 0.9892 0.9976 1.0000
wp1 | 0.9186 0.9266 0.9246 1.0000 |
If I don’t minutes weight, I get a correlation of 0.989 for Wins Produced with a position and team adjustment and Win Score with only a position adjustment. I think the 0.974 weighted correlation is more relevant, but reporting 0.989 is probably OK. And 0.994 isn’t too far off from that.
Now I can’t exactly nail down any of the metrics with a position adjustment, because there is no guarantee that I have assigned positions in the same way Berri has.
EXPLAINING TEAM WINS
So far, so good. Now, let’s expand the point that John Quincy made. What correlations with team wins do I get if I look over the same 1993-94 through 2004-05 as used in Wages of Wins? Here are the metrics I examine.
OWNW = own wins
EFF = team offensive minus defensive points per possession
WP1PT = Wins Produced with a position and team adjustment
WS1P = Win Score with a position adjustement, but no team adjustment
PTSPGT = Points per Game with a team adjustment
NE1PT = NBA Efficiency with a position and team adjustment
WS2PT = Win Score with a position and team adjustment, where the weight on field goals missed has been changed to -0.7, the weight on free throws missed has been changed to -0.35, the weight on offensive rebounds has been changed to 0.7, and the weight on defensive rebounds has been changed to 0.3.
This alternative Win Score metric is simple and falls more in line with the findings in "A Starting Point for Analyzing Basketball Statistics."
http://www.uncg.edu/eco/rosenbaum/jqas1.doc
Code: | CORRELATIONS OF TEAM WINS AND VARIOUS METRICS SUMMED BY TEAM (n=345)
| ownw eff wp1pt ws1p ptspgt ne1pt ws2pt
-------------+---------------------------------------------------------------
ownw | 1.0000
eff | 0.9735 1.0000
wp1pt | 0.9735 1.0000 1.0000
ws1p | 0.8107 0.8169 0.8169 1.0000
ptspgt | 0.9735 1.0000 1.0000 0.8169 1.0000
ne1pt | 0.9735 1.0000 1.0000 0.8169 1.0000 1.0000
ws2pt | 0.9735 1.0000 1.0000 0.8169 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000 |
So without a team adjustment, Win Score performs a little better here than in John Quincy’s analysis of 2003-04. But the message is the still the same. Without the team adjustment, Wins Produced or Win Score explain far less than 95% of team wins. Here is looks like it explains about 65% of team wins. And notice that anything with a team adjustment is perfectly correlated with team efficiency. That's what the team adjustment does.
In my next post, I will examine how these various metrics predict future team wins. |
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DLew
Joined: 13 Nov 2006 Posts: 224
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:28 pm Post subject: |
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I suspect that given what you just found Berri's actual numbers without the team adjustmet would explain around 75% of team wins. This is pretty much what we expected.
What this means is that his method is not nearly as useful as he claims it to be. First off, assuming all of a team's players return from the previous year and post exactly the same box score statistics, we can still expect a very significant variation in team wins due to that unexplained 25%.
Secondly, this means that any linear weights model that explains 75% of team wins (probably not a particularly tough criteria, but I haven't tried) can be given a team adjustment is then just as good as Wins Produced in every way shape and form. |
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Eli W
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:36 pm Post subject: |
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Great stuff, Dan. You put my little "study" to shame. _________________ Eli W. (formerly John Quincy)
CountTheBasket.com |
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Dan Rosenbaum
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 541 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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PREDICTING FUTURE TEAM WINS
As was demonstrated in the previous post, any metric with a team adjustment will explain wins with the same level of accuracy. A more useful barometer for these metrics is how well they predict future team wins. To do this, I have to make a couple assumptions.
(1) Player productivity per minute is the same as in the previous season. (Yes, points per game is used as a per minute productivity metric.)
(2) I assume that all players who played less than 250 minutes in the previous season are perfectly predicted. This abstracts away from predictions on rookies and low minutes players.
I look at the same metrics as in the previous post over the 1993-94 through 2004-05 seasons. Since I am predicting future team wins, the outcome is a season ahead in the 1994-95 through 2005-06 seasons.
OWNW = own wins
WP1PT = Wins Produced with a position and team adjustment
WS1P = Win Score with a position adjustement, but no team adjustment
PTSPGT = Points per Game with a team adjustment
NE1PT = NBA Efficiency with a position and team adjustment
WS2PT = Win Score with a position and team adjustment, where the weight on field goals missed has been changed to -0.7, the weight on free throws missed has been changed to -0.35, the weight on offensive rebounds has been changed to 0.7, and the weight on defensive rebounds has been changed to 0.3.
This alternative Win Score metric is simple and falls more in line with the findings in "A Starting Point for Analyzing Basketball Statistics."
http://www.uncg.edu/eco/rosenbaum/jqas1.doc
Code: | CORRELATIONS OF FUTURE TEAM WINS AND VARIOUS METRICS SUMMED BY TEAM (n=348)
| ownw wp1pt ws1p ptspgpt ne1pt ws2pt
-------------+------------------------------------------------------
ownw | 1.0000
wp1pt | 0.7947 1.0000
ws1p | 0.6995 0.8941 1.0000
ptspgt | 0.7981 0.8853 0.7251 1.0000
ne1pt | 0.8070 0.9619 0.8472 0.9135 1.0000
ws2pt | 0.8204 0.9729 0.8546 0.9248 0.9771 1.0000
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So here is the ordering of how each metric predicts future team wins.
(1) My alternative Win Score metric with a position and team adjustment
(2) NBA Efficiency with a position and team adjustment
(3) Points per Game with a position and team adjustment
(4) Wins Produced with a position and team adjustment
(5) Win Score with only a position adjustment
So over the sample period that Berri examined in Wages of Wins, a decision-maker using points per game, but adjusting for team quality, would seem to be better off than using Wins Produced. Someone using NBA Efficiency with position and team adjustments would also seem to be better off. Someone using my alternative Win Score metric would seem to be much better off.
I do agree with Berri that box score statistics can be useful. But some compilations of box score stats are better than others, and it appears that Wins Produced isn't one of the better metrics.
And, of course, there could be mistakes in any or all of this, but whatever differences there are between what I did here and what Berri does are unlikely to be a good explanation for why my adapted Win Score metric performs so much better than Wins Produced. Those two metrics are produced in exactly the same way, so the only real difference between these two metrics is the weights. So there has to be some reason that the weights that I propose appear to be predicting future team wins better than Wins Produced. |
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Eli W
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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Dan Rosenbaum wrote: | WS2PT = Win Score with a position and team adjustment, where the weight on field goals missed has been changed to -0.7, the weight on free throws missed has been changed to -0.35, the weight on offensive rebounds has been changed to 0.7, and the weight on defensive rebounds has been changed to 0.3.
This alternative Win Score metric is simple and falls more in line with the findings in "A Starting Point for Analyzing Basketball Statistics." |
I see where you're getting the weights for offensive and defensive rebounds, but which findings in the paper lead to the weights for missed FGs and FTs? Also, when you say the weight on field goals missed has been changed to -0.7 do you mean that the weight for field goals attempted has been changed to -0.7? _________________ Eli W. (formerly John Quincy)
CountTheBasket.com |
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Dan Rosenbaum
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 541 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:02 pm Post subject: |
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John Quincy wrote: | Dan Rosenbaum wrote: | WS2PT = Win Score with a position and team adjustment, where the weight on field goals missed has been changed to -0.7, the weight on free throws missed has been changed to -0.35, the weight on offensive rebounds has been changed to 0.7, and the weight on defensive rebounds has been changed to 0.3.
This alternative Win Score metric is simple and falls more in line with the findings in "A Starting Point for Analyzing Basketball Statistics." |
I see where you're getting the weights for offensive and defensive rebounds, but which findings in the paper lead to the weights for missed FGs and FTs? Also, when you say the weight on field goals missed has been changed to -0.7 do you mean that the weight for field goals attempted has been changed to -0.7? |
Let me make this clear. Our paper only briefly discusses linear weights metrics, and it does not prescribe any particular linear weights. But if a metric is possession-based as the WoW metrics profess to be, our paper suggests particular relationships between the "possession values" for particular variables.
The basic principle is that the "possession value" of a defensive rebound plus that of an missed field goal should add up to the "possession value" of a turnover or a made field goal. The "possession value" of offensive rebounds have the same magnitude as missed field goals. The empirical results in the paper strongly support these claims, but they do not prescribe particular weights for these variables.
So I plugged in -0.7 for missed field goals (leaving made field goals at -1), since approximately 70 percent of the time missed field goals are rebounded by the other team. (Nearly 100 percent of the time made field goals are inbounded by the other team.) So using the principles above, I applied a weight of 0.7 to offensive rebounds and a weight of 0.3 to defensive rebounds. I just halved the missed field goal weight to get the -0.35 weight for missed free throws. Made free throws retain their weight of -0.5.
I am not advocating this metric as some sort of Holy Grail. (It is not anything that I have ever used or intend to use.) I just thought it would be useful to compare to Wins Produced, and the fact that it is a simple, theory-based metric that performs so much better than Wins Produced is very telling. |
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Eli W
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 Posts: 402
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Very interesting. I think the most damning finding is that points per game with a team adjustment explains team wins just as well as Wins Produced and predicts future wins better than Wins Produced.
Dan, what metric would you recommend to sports economists for use in their research, assuming they don't have access to adjusted (or even statistical) plus/minus? _________________ Eli W. (formerly John Quincy)
CountTheBasket.com |
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Dan Rosenbaum
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 541 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: |
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An Update:
Two more posters (neither of which are me) ask what fraction of team wins are explained by Wins Produced without a team adjustment, and we get another response from Berri that refuses to provide the number.
He has already made an argument for why that number is not important, so it really weird that he doesn't just provide it.
But he has an argument about the team adjustment.
Quote: | Just a few questions, but when you say “I inserted a team adjustment”, exactly what do you mean? The team adjustment we use is simply the statistics tracked for the team that are not assigned to a player. This is restricted to field goals made by the opponent, opponents turnovers (that are not steal), and team rebounds. That is it. These factors account for how well a team played defense and also for tempo. Because these are only tracked at the team level we end up arguing in The Wages of Wins that your ability to play defense is equal to the average ability on your team. If a player is better than his team average, our method understates his productivity. If you are worse, it overstates.
If someone came up with an objective measure of defensive ability, then we would not need a team adjustment at all (except for team rebounds and team turnovers, which are small).
What I need to know is what team adjustment you used? What theoretical support do you have for creating your team adjustment? If I collected more data (for example, an objective measure of defensive ability) can I eliminate your team adjustment?
This is a problem with doing statistical analysis. You can’t just throw data together and say you have a model. Models begin with some kind of theoretical structure. Our theory, which I can show has validity, is that wins are determined by offensive and defensive efficiency. What theory are you using in building your model? |
http://dberri.wordpress.com/2007/03/21/nba-babble-babble/#comments
Actually, his team adjustment accounts for more than just "field goals made by the opponent, opponents turnovers (that are not steal), and team rebounds." It also accounts for free throws not accounted for with personal fouls, undoes the assists credited to particular players, and adjusts for tempo. Those last two items, in particular the assist part, are fudge factors that allow the team adjustment (theoretically) to be pretty much anything anyone wants it to be.
It would be really easy to show how points per game are correlated with wins and then use the team adjustment to "undo" it and then allow the team adjustment to account for everything not accounted for by points per game. Yeah, we are forcing the team adjustment to work a little harder, but given this metric's greater simplicity and better predictive power, it's not quite clear why forcing the team adjustment to work harder is a death knell for this metric.
But OK, let's grant Berri every point he makes in this post. It still leaves open the question of why another simple, theory-based metric (my alternative Win Score) predicts future team wins so much better than Wins Produced.
Berri has never provided any evidence that Wins Produced better predicts future wins than ANY other metric, except salary. |
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NickS
Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 384
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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Thank you Dan, this whole set of posts is really excellent.
BTW, how does this adjusted WS compare to, for example Mike G's production rating (prior to his team adjustments). |
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Dan Rosenbaum
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 541 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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John Quincy wrote: | Very interesting. I think the most damning finding is that points per game with a team adjustment explains team wins just as well as Wins Produced and predicts future wins better than Wins Produced.
Dan, what metric would you recommend to sports economists for use in their research, assuming they don't have access to adjusted (or even statistical) plus/minus? |
I don't want to go into that Pandora's box, but all I would say is that I would use both (1) my alternative Win Score metric with a position and team adjustment and (2) Points per Game with a team adjustment before I would use Wins Produced.
It also should be pointed out that there is no position adjustment in (2) and the position adjustment in (1) is less important than with Wins Produced. Given the difficulty of accurately designating positions, this is another reason to prefer either of these other two metrics. |
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Dan Rosenbaum
Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 541 Location: Greensboro, North Carolina
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Posted: Thu Mar 22, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject: |
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NickS wrote: | Thank you Dan, this whole set of posts is really excellent.
BTW, how does this adjusted WS compare to, for example Mike G's production rating (prior to his team adjustments). |
When I rewrote this program, I purposely did not include other metrics for comparison purposes, including my own statistical plus/minus metric. I want to leave the focus squarely on Wages of Wins. I don't think this alternative Win Score metric is, by any means, better than lots of metrics already out there. |
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