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supersub15
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 102
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject: What's the best way to measure team rebounding? |
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A lot of media people measure team rebounding prowess by using rebounding differential (Tm Reb - Opp Reb).
I found this to be lacking, in that rebounding is always dependent on shooting. For example, Toronto was outrebounded by 3.09 per game last year, the fourth-worst differential in the league. Yet, the Raptors were 12th in shooting with a FG% of .463. But isn't true that the better you shoot, the fewer the rebounds?
Is there already a way to link FG% with rebounding? |
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Ben F.
Joined: 07 Mar 2005 Posts: 308 Location: MD
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Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 6:23 pm Post subject: |
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See this excellent post by Tom Ziller:
Tom Ziller wrote: | You can tell how well a team is rebounding by looking at their offensive and defensive rebound percentages. For offensive Reb%, you take the team's offensive rebounds divided by the sum of the team's offensive rebounds and the opponent's defensive rebounds. For defensive Reb%, it is the team's defensive rebounds divided by the sum of the team's defensive rebounds and the opponent's offensive rebounds. |
_________________ XOHoops - A New Kind of Fantasy Basketball |
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supersub15
Joined: 21 Sep 2006 Posts: 102
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:26 am Post subject: |
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Ben F. wrote: | See this excellent post by Tom Ziller:
Tom Ziller wrote: | You can tell how well a team is rebounding by looking at their offensive and defensive rebound percentages. For offensive Reb%, you take the team's offensive rebounds divided by the sum of the team's offensive rebounds and the opponent's defensive rebounds. For defensive Reb%, it is the team's defensive rebounds divided by the sum of the team's defensive rebounds and the opponent's offensive rebounds. |
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Thanks for the link, Ben.
Using Rebounding Margin:
Code: | UTH 5.488
NYK 4.463
DAL 3.780
CLE 3.659
ORL 3.122
CHI 2.780
HOU 2.500
NOR 2.329
LAC 1.854
SAS 1.585
DEN 1.122
POR 0.305
IND 0.207
BOS -0.183
ATL -0.366
MIA -0.549
NJN -0.561
DET -0.659
LAL -1.000
MIN -1.244
SEA -1.366
PHI -1.476
WAS -1.793
PHO -2.341
MEM -2.524
CHA -2.744
TOR -3.098
MIL -3.866
SAC -4.415
GSW -5.012 |
Using Rebounding Average:
Code: | UTH 0.564
CLE 0.556
NYK 0.555
NOR 0.549
DAL 0.545
ORL 0.544
CHI 0.543
POR 0.537
IND 0.537
HOU 0.536
LAC 0.536
DEN 0.534
ATL 0.534
BOS 0.533
WAS 0.529
DET 0.528
SEA 0.526
SAS 0.522
CHA 0.521
PHI 0.521
LAL 0.520
NJN 0.520
MIA 0.516
MEM 0.515
MIL 0.514
MIN 0.513
GSW 0.508
TOR 0.507
SAC 0.505
PHO 0.497 |
The order changes, but minimally. Some teams go up or down a couple of spots, but you can still figure out the good overall rebounding teams from the bad.
Going by DReb%:
Code: | HOU 0.816
CLE 0.816
UTH 0.811
NOR 0.806
DAL 0.804
SAS 0.801
NYK 0.800
LAC 0.800
CHI 0.800
BOS 0.796
NJN 0.794
ORL 0.794
TOR 0.792
POR 0.791
IND 0.789
MIA 0.784
LAL 0.780
DEN 0.780
SAC 0.779
CHA 0.779
WAS 0.776
ATL 0.776
MIN 0.775
DET 0.773
SEA 0.773
MEM 0.771
PHI 0.770
PHO 0.767
GSW 0.760
MIL 0.752 |
Still more or less the same teams at the top, but Toronto moves from the bottom to 13th overall. That tells me that the team ignores offensive rebounds to get back fast on defense and limit fast-break points, which is consistent with the philosophy espoused by Sam Mitchell.
Can we still say that the Raptors are a bad rebounding team? |
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Mike G
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 1662 Location: Delphi, Indiana
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 6:31 am Post subject: |
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As noted, teams rebound missed shots by themselves and by their opponents. But teams aren't equal in how many they miss relative to opponent misses. And missed FT, while technically 'available' to either team, are much less likely to be rebounded by the shooting team.
Therefore, I've been assessing team DReb% and OReb% by estimating the % of missed FGA they get. It goes like this:
OReb% = ORFG/(ORFG+OpDRFG)
in which
ORFG = OR - .035*(FTA-FT)
and
OpDRFG = OpDReb - .53(FTA-FT)
These are estimates because I've assumed 53% of missed FT are rebounded by the defense, and 3.5% by the offense. There may be notable differences in how well teams box out and/or attack missed FT.
But there are certainly differences in how often a team shoots FT or puts the opponent on the line. On a given night, your opponent may miss many FT, thus handing you many DReb. This doesn't mean your team rebounded exceptionally well, just that you fouled the right guys a lot.
Every team has a much higher OReb% on FGA than on FTA. Last season, 'traditional' OReb% averaged .271, while from FGA it was .292. Departing from the average .021 difference were the extremes of Phx (.011: they don't foul much) and Orl (.034).
This little tweak would be more accurate if anyone knows the actual OReb and DReb% of missed FT. _________________ 40% of all statistics are wrong. |
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Mike G
Joined: 14 Jan 2005 Posts: 1662 Location: Delphi, Indiana
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Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:21 am Post subject: |
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supersub15 wrote: | Using Rebounding Average:
Code: | UTH 0.564
...
PHO 0.497 |
...
Going by DReb%:
Code: | HOU 0.816
...
MIL 0.752 |
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Something ain't right. Shouldn't rebound% average .500 ? Don't DReb% (traditional) range from about .680 to .770 ?
TomZ suggests averaging OR% and DR%. (That's what I do.) Better than .500 is better than average. Yet there may be more offensive or defensive chances, yes? _________________ 40% of all statistics are wrong. |
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