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[MVP]

Im talking about the fiba world championships. They had great players on their team and did take it seriously, but they just couldn't win it. Why?

I think it had so much to do with the fact that they didn't have any great three-point shooters on their team (only one I can think of is Shane Battier). Kobe who's a great shooter just like Arenas didn't play, b/c of injuries and neither did Michael Redd or Chauncey Billups (let alone Ray Allen).

It also has to do with them probably being a bit burned out (Wade for example who played in the finals..Nowitzki didnt play great either) and some great players not playing (for other countries every good player usually plays whereas for the US team Ray Allen or Kevin Garnett, etc. simply dont want to play).

Also they hadnt been playing together as a team for a long time, yet (which they will have done when its time for the olympics) and werent used to the international court, etc.

But anyways, I'm making a bold claim, now, but I think the US national team will flat out dominate the international competition at the olympics even though everybody says the world has caught up with US basketball. I think if they got great (and healthy) shooters on the team and have been playing together for 2-3 years no team will really stand a chance (even though I dont expect them to dominate like the dream team did ).

Has anyone ever bothered to do a regression (or something similar) on how important three point shooting is in the international game?

P.S.: Im from Germany, so Im not biased, thats simply my expectation after the US dominated Venezuela yesterday! J/K lol

[asimpkins]

The USA had the best offense in the tournament. While there is no reason that it can't get better, it doesn't seem like the problem was really at the offensive end.

We couldn't defend Greece and their pick and roll. That was the biggest problem and what could most use some improvement.

[MVP]

Oh really..? Never thought about that one to be honest.

I think not having great 3point shooters must have been another reason, though, as that's the 3pointer is really so crucial in the international game. If I watch the German national team or the Bundesliga (Germany's first league) hardly anybody ever takes a midrange jumper..I know few people in the NBA do that either but with the 3 point line being closer the shot from behind the arc is so much more effective...cant wait to see guy's like Redd, Kobe & Arenas tear it up from behind the arc (I think Arenas had said his role on the team would be that of a shooter not that of a slasher as he knew they already had great guys in Wade and LeBron who do that)

[asimpkins]

There's a great discussion of last year's tournament here.

Arenas is out this year, and after being cut last year -- and being pretty upset about it -- I wonder if he'll ever be back.

Of course, improving 3 point shooting would help the team. Scoring one more point on the offensive end is just as valuable as denying one more point on the defensive end. I just meant to highlight that it wasn't our biggest weakness.

[MVP]

Yeah, I understand your point about the defensive end. Do you know what rank they were for points allowed in the tournament? I assume if they were #1 on offense that means they scored the most points/game?

[MVP]

Btw, I think if the US don't wint gold in the olympics (after working out for that tournament long in advance and taking it seriously) that would not only be embarrassing, but that would also raise a lot of doubt as to whether the NBA really is the best league in the world and whether its accurate to call the NBA champion "world champion".

Hopefully I dont sound like a hater (I want to see the US win the olympics), but for example many players (most?) still do take the NBA title more seriously than the olympics (many great players dont even want to play...).

But how will that change if the US should end up not winning gold after working out 3 years in advance and trying to build a great team (with many of their best guys playing)?

Would guys like Garnett or Ray Allen still choose not to play for the national team b/c they dont really take it seriously?

I think there's actually more on the line for team USA than it seems:

What will an NBA title be worth if the guys from that league can't put together the best national team?

P.S.: Some people who are into basketball in Europe seem to think of the NBA more as a show than as a basketball competition..at least you sometimes hear those comments.

[94by50]

I understand why other countries put so much emphasis on international tournaments, but it's irritating to hear them crow about our defeats. I don't think one game proves very much about the relative quality of teams. Look, if a school like Chaminade can beat #1 Virginia, then all bets are off, as far as I'm concerned. And the relative difference between Greece and the U.S. at the FIBA WCs was far, far less than those two teams.

It would be very, very, very interesting to see a small club tournament created, such as is common in soccer (er, football). A 32-team tournament, perhaps, running two weeks, with, say:

The NBA's best teams (4, 6, 8, I don't know)
The Euroleague Final Four
Other national club teams from Italy, Russia, Greece, Spain, France, etc.

It won't happen anytime soon... but it should. If the NBA season weren't so long, it would be easier to implement.

[asimpkins]

[MVP]

Well, I think the thing is if you call the winning team of your league the world champions your country should be able to dominate the competition, not just win by 2 points, but dominate the competition. Im not too hung up on calling the NBA champion world champion, but its sort of the whole reputation of the league..being flat out the best league in the world and all.

Team US hasn't lost only one time against Greece, but they didnt win Gold at a few of the tournaments before, either if I remember correctly (or was it just the Olympics?). Of course they didnt take it as seriously as other nations, but at the last tournament it seemed like they did take it seriously and they still couldnt get the gold medal, but lost to Greece.

They hadnt been playing together for a long time, yet plus lacked some good players, but now they have a whole lot of time to build a great team and get used to the international game and most guys are taking it seriously (not as seriously as other nations considering some great US players still wont play, but they do have many of the best players of the league on team USA, now).

So the way I feel about it, they should dominate at the olympics next time (or at least win gold j/k) or else the reputation of the NBA would really suffer imho.

That being said I think they will do just that. At the last tournament were they lost to Greece they didnt have any real shooters - I know defense seems to be the main problem, but I dont agree with the fact that putting effort into offense will only marginally increase the team's effectiveness (as stated in the other thread).

They are already #1 on offense, but I remember at the last tournament they had mostly players like LeBron and Wade on the floor (Wade is my favorite player but he's simply not a great shooter..neither is Lebron), hardly any guys who could light it up from behind the arc and now that theyll have guys like Billups, Mike Miller, Kobe..and of course Michael Redd on the floor, I think they'll be able to dominante even way more on the offensive end.

I think there could only be a marginal increase on offense if we're talking about 2 point baskets, but every analyst should segment their data and (forgive me for not having the data right here) I really think they'll do much much better at shooting the three with guys like Redd, Billups and Kobe on the team which will increase their efficiency on offense more than just slightly. Seriously werent Carmelo and Shane Battier the only guys on the team that were able to shoot well?

I really think as important as an improvement on the defensive end is their lack of 3 point shooters last year is underestimated. Take away the ability to shoot 3's from most international teams and make them drive most of them time and they might suck.

Hopefully theyll sort out their issues with the defense, too and dominate the Olympics now that they are taking it seriously...and to be honest even if they wont be as incredible as the dream team of old, I think they do have the potential to be an incredible team and win every game by 2 digits.

[asimpkins]

[MVP]

What you say about Wade sounds interesting and I agree that he's a good shooter within his range. I've always thought of him as a good (not superior, but good) shooter from midrange. However, I was also wondering whether he was simply an average midrange shooter for NBA standards, but got pretty good shots, because most defenders will probably rather back up and have him shoot the ball if that means they can stay in front of him...meaning the midrange shots he gets are easier than those of the average player.

But as for this stats from the tournament..personally I won't draw any conclusions from a sample size of 6. I know you know that it's a very small sample size, but Im wondering what 4/6 would look like in a sample size of hundred or a few hundred.

It's normal for players to have streaks where they hit most shots and streaks where they hit very few shots. So possibly during the early rounds he had a bad streak and during those 2 games he had a good hand, but I think we really shouldnt try to draw any conclusions from so few shot attempts.

However, I think maybe you're right and I didn't give Wade enough credit and underestimated his shooting skills as the international 3 point line really might be in his range.

But what I was trying to say is that the guys they had on the team were more slashers, not shooters. Maybe Wade can be a good shooter from the international 3 point line, but I think guys like Redd, Billups, Mike Miller & Kobe should be able to really light it up from behind the international 3 point arc.

I wouldnt be surprised if the team (with those guys on the team) will shoot quite a bit more efficiently from that range and at the same time shoot a higher percentage of their field goal attempts from behind the arc (which would/will result in more points).

Actually I think youre right though...Even though Wade is my favorite player in the NBA I might have believed what the masses say a bit too much and given him too little credit for his shooting ability, hes a pretty good midrange shooter, but he (and the other guys) are simply not great 3point shooters.

EDIT: I just looked it up: Wade shot 5 of 18 from the international line, so if he shot 4/6 during the last 2 games that means he was 1 of 11 in the games before..we probably shouldnt look at either of these streaks to represent his true ability from behind the three point arc. I guess he'd probably be an average shooter from there something like 33-35% or so.

Team USA shot 36.9% from behind the arc and I think with real three point threads on the team they'll be able to shoot well over 40% (against virgin island they shot 50%, but its probably too low a sample size, which is also biased against a fairly weak team ;( ).

[Harold Almonte]

MVP wrote:

[MVP]

I neither agree with the people who say that NBA is all show and no basketball and I only agree partially with your statement (b/c I think its a bit exaggerated).

However one could also say that international basketball is also biased towards team basketball and who is to say that the game of basketball should be biased towards driving scorers and not towards shooting skills and defense?

Fact is that team USA has to dominate and win the Olympics or claims such as the one you made in your post will lack evidence and sound ridiculous after another failure to meet expectations at an international tournament against teams that are supposedly playing 2 leagues lower lol.

[tmansback]

Probably the biggest waste of time is discussing the so called fall of USA Mens basketball. The fact is the USA is by far still the best in the world. Were the only country that can send a completely different team to any international tournament and still be the favorites. The rest of the world is pretty much sending the same team over and over again. The biggest thing USA has to overcome in those situations is playing talented teams that are familar with each other. All while being a team that has players that have not played with each other very much.

The USA can sit Kevin Garnett, Shaq, Tim Duncan, Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady and still be favorites for the gold. There the only country that currently has a medal in both the Worlds and Olympics. It may not be the color medal they want. If USA is not the best in the world who is. There still winning something like 85-90% of there international games already. They beat there opponents by more than anyone in the world. They have done it with there C squad that barely play together. If I add Garnett, Shaq, Duncan, Kidd, Bryant, McGrady, etc to any of those squads there not a team in the world that would be within 25 points to them. Spain won the world championships but a team with Odom and Carlos Boozer as there best players beat them in the Olympics for a Medal. Argentina beat USA for Olympic gold but lost to USA in the Worlds.

The reality is the 92 Dream team was all the best players. The USA is not sending all there best players now. The world has made steps to improve. The USA though brought the bar down when the best were not going anymore. With less talent the world made up enough ground that they can beat the USA in a given day. The USA found out if your not going to send your best players then u better put together better teams. Greece and Spain would have been destroyed if I remove some of the young players like Chris Paul, Kirk Hinrich, Dwight Howard, Chris Bosh, Joe Johnson. Replace them with names like Bryant, Duncan, KG, Jkidd, Billups.

The only country that makes me nervous about USA always being the best in basketball is China. There not close right now but they have so many young kids playing basketball now that I could see a massive rush of great Chinese prospects in 5-10 years.

The rest of these countries are laughable. Spain there pretty legit but there not close to USA. Argentina had pretty much all the best players in there countries history come up at around the same time. They know the second that Manu and Oberto stop playing there screwed. There so thin that they may not make the Olympics if things don't go right for them. The Eastern European teams have done nothing in years. Serbia is putting there hopes on Darko. So who has really caught up. The collective efforts of the entire world have maybe got to the point that they can beat a C squad USA team if they have a ridiculous shooting night.

The scary thing for the rest of the world is its popular to be part of USA basketball now. It will be interesting to see what happens after the Olympics. If Lebron, Wade, Anthony, Howard, Bosh, Amare keep playing internationally. If they do then u start adding guys like Durant, Oden, Paul, Deron to name a few. Now u have talented players with international experience that have played together. Have fun trying to beat those teams.

[tHe_pEsTiLeNcE]