APBRmetrics

jeffpotts77 · Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Cambridge, MA

Does anyone know of any place where I can find out statistics on charges drawn, or offensive fouls drawn? I did a search on this site, but I didn't find any threads on it. I could have missed something though. Thanks.

KnickerBlogger · Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 180

82games has fouls drawn.

Example:
http://82games.com/04NYK1D.HTM
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jeffpotts77 · Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Cambridge, MA

Thanks Knickerblogger, that is definitely helpful. I am still in search of charges drawn, if it is even possibly out there. It seems to me, that it is equal value to that of a steal. In both instances, you take away a possession from your opponent. It seems pretty significant to not be counted by someone. Thanks again, though Knickerblogger. Also thanks for keeping your site updated with everything! I check it everyday!

Ed Küpfer · Joined: 30 Dec 2004 Posts: 785 Location: Toronto

jeffpotts77 · Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Cambridge, MA

Ed,

That's a good point about steals, I guess I've underestimated their value a bit.

Does anybody have any idea what kind of per-game (or per-minute) numbers the leader of the league might have if the nba kept track of charges drawn? I'm just looking for anyone's ballpark opinion.

gabefarkas · Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 1313 Location: Durham, NC

i'd guess slightly more than 1 per game. maybe 1.1 - 1.2.

i remember when Shane Battier was at Duke, they put up a stat during his last tournament that he had set the NCAA record with 1.1 charges drawn per game over his career.

jeffpotts77 · Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Cambridge, MA

gabefarkas,

Thanks, that puts things more into perspective for me. It makes me wonder how this statistic might affect the PER of any given player. Morris Peterson is reputed as having great ability to draw charges. And Shane Battier too! Assuming the value of a charge drawn was slightly less than the value of a steal (because of the reasons listed above), how does everyone think this would affect the PER?

gkrndija · Joined: 20 Feb 2005 Posts: 64

jeffpotts77 · Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Cambridge, MA

How does one get a hold of game logs? Are these available to everyone?

I found the "Play by Play" in the boxscores on nba.com, but they don't list as much detail as I'm looking for. Have any of you created your own game logs with details such as: picks set, charges drawn, or deflections made? Thanks!

Kevin Pelton · Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:21 am Post subject:

Jeff's question got through to John Hollinger in today's chat at ESPN.com. John had nothing to offer, but did repeat the theory that a charge and a steal are equally valuable.

There is one source for charges drawn online, and that is the Nuggets game notes:
http://www.nba.com/nuggets/news/notes.pdf

jeffpotts77 · Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Cambridge, MA

Admin,

I was very excited to have my question answered on that ESPN chat yesterday! I printed it out (I'm such a geek!)

Anyway, the Nuggets charge statistics you directed me to were extremely helpful. Thank you! It doesn't seem like there are any players on this team who are prolific at drawing charges. I don't think their totals would affect their PER unless one of them has a high per-minute rate. (Below I've factored out their per-40 min charge rate).

* means small sample size

Nene 0.815 per 40
E. Najera 0.779*
F. Elson 0.458
B. Russel 0.454
W. Person 0.430*
M. Camby 0.304
A. Miller 0.287
N. Skit 0.253*
E. Boykins 0.122
K. Martin 0.103
D. Johnson 0.047*

I'm intrigued to see if Derek Fisher, Morris Peterson or Shane Battier (among others) would see their PER rise if we discovered and then factored-in their charges totals.

If anyone averaged 2 or more charges per game, and charges are worth about the same as a steal, then this would make a noticable difference, wouldn't it?

gabefarkas · Joined: 31 Dec 2004 Posts: 1313 Location: Durham, NC

how would you factor charges into PER exactly? what weight would you use?

jeffpotts77 · Joined: 18 Feb 2005 Posts: 150 Location: Cambridge, MA

During the online chat with John Hollinger yesterday, he answered my question about what a charge was worth. In his words, it is equal to a steal, because both actions cause an end to an opponents possession.

I think that if John had read Ed's argument (above) about why a steal is more valuable, then it's possible he might change his stance....slightly. Who knows?

kjb · Joined: 03 Jan 2005 Posts: 865 Location: Washington, DC

Defensively the value of charges and steals would logically be the same -- for the exact reasoning John used. But, steals often have an offensive value in easy baskets that a charge drawn wouldn't have because the drawn charge always results in a stoppage of play.

Kneepad · Joined: 19 Jan 2005 Posts: 17

Additional value to charges drawn vs. steals:

1. It causes a personal foul to a player on the other team (adds to opponenents potential foul trouble, and hastens how quickly a team reaches the bonus).

2. As has been discussed in a prior thread, the act of attempting a steal and missing can sometimes leave a team's defensive position compromised. Attempting to draw a change carries no such negative.