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Mountain
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 1527
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 Posted: Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:45 am Post subject: |
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Anybody know / willing to give a thumbnail description of who the Lakers have doing analysis beyond the coaching staff?
Utah? Does New Orleans partake? Orlando?
Did Rick Sund add analytical staff in Atlanta?
What level does Detroit have? Less "analytic" staff, more classical scouting based?
Any lower ranking teams beefing up? |
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HoopStudies
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 705
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 13, 2008 7:28 pm Post subject: |
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| hoopseng wrote: | It would be interesting to watch some games with an advanced stats people live commentary. Most of the viewers might get bored but we've been for a long time getting bored with their cliches?
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I'm beginning to think that this would be a really good idea.
I will say that there are A LOT of people who don't know how the stats connect to what is happening in the game. Frankly, stats can be a little boring during a game because they tend to reflect longer term trends, so you better know the dynamics as well as the stats.
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Also, at the pre-game shows, I would do anything to see a scouting report that coaches/staff use. |
Every serious stat person should see one. Or several.
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Dean Oliver
Author, Basketball on Paper
The postings are my own & don't necess represent positions, strategies or opinions of employers. |
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Ed Küpfer
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 783
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 12:47 pm Post subject: |
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| HoopStudies wrote: | | Quote: |
Also, at the pre-game shows, I would do anything to see a scouting report that coaches/staff use. |
Every serious stat person should see one. Or several. |
Is that an offer?
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Serhat Ugur (hoopseng)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Basketball Research
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| HoopStudies wrote: |
Every serious stat person should see one. Or several. |
Like this Suns' scouting report on C's?
and this?
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HoopStudies
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 705
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 6:28 pm Post subject: |
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| hoopseng wrote: | | HoopStudies wrote: |
Every serious stat person should see one. Or several. |
Like this Suns' scouting report on C's?
... |
Those look like very preliminary drafts. Normally, they are typed and much more complete. For the playoffs, they're much much bigger. I don't know if bigger is better, but these Pho examples are pretty sparse.
And, Ed, I don't have one handy to disperse, but I'm sure you guys can provide one for the public.  Should be a fun one on Tuesday. Hopefully as fun as the game on 11/30.
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Dean Oliver
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The postings are my own & don't necess represent positions, strategies or opinions of employers. |
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Ed Küpfer
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 783
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:52 pm Post subject: |
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| HoopStudies wrote: | | Should be a fun one on Tuesday. Hopefully as fun as the game on 11/30. |
Should be even better this time.
I guarantee it.
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devin3807
Joined: 11 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Sun Dec 14, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject: |
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| hoopseng wrote: | | HoopStudies wrote: |
Every serious stat person should see one. Or several. |
Like this Suns' scouting report on C's?
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Ha!
Ray Allen:
"FIND HIM! DO NOT LEAVE"
"QUICK RELEASE CATCH +SHOOT"
"CONTEST!"
Seriously? This is Ray friggin' Allen. My girlfriend could have wrote that up. |
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Mountain
Joined: 13 Mar 2007
Posts: 1527
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 4:32 am Post subject: |
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Why would you tape a preliminary draft to the wall? I guess you could if this was a group project- fill in your 2 cents- but that wouldn't come across as advance, intensive and professional.
Or is this the level that the players will read? The boiled down version?
Or perhaps more understandable, maybe it is just what they are offered to read at the last minute- highlights as core reminders after listening to the coach or seeing a more detailed presentation on a chalk board?
I don't take this example necessarily as average, I would hope not. I certainly don't think it is a fair representation of the depth of the scouting report complied or presented to the coaches.
But I am also not totally surprised by the brevity of the messages to the players either.
Last edited by Mountain on Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:12 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Serhat Ugur (hoopseng)
Joined: 13 Oct 2006
Posts: 207
Location: Basketball Research
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| Posted: Mon Dec 15, 2008 5:06 am Post subject: |
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Pho's scouting reports seem to be written by their broadcasters as they have some screens like KEY FACTORS, etc. during the game.
Did you see the notes for Rajon Rondo?
"Doc's whipping boy, make him finish!"
Any guess on what MikeZ would react when he saw those?
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Gavin
Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 3
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 10:53 am Post subject: |
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| HoopStudies wrote: | | gabefarkas wrote: |
So, does this mean we've arrived, so to speak? |
Given that most of the teams over .500 have stats people with some influence and most of the teams under .500 don't -- I think the arrival is more than in the media. |
Just out of curiosity...which teams have stats people? |
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mikez
Joined: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 71
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Any guess on what MikeZ would react when he saw those? |
No comment... We'll let Rondo's recent stats speak for themselves.
Having said that, a key part of my job (and, actually, an even more important part of all coaches' jobs) is trying to figure out which items are actually worth communicating to coaches & players. You can find something (call it "X") that's statistically significant and that you think will have an important effect on a game, but there may be 20 other things the coaches may RIGHTLY think are even more important than X, and only 5 of those 20 that they think they can successfully communicate to the players such that the players will act on them. As a result it can be very rational not to communicate X to the players even though acting on it, all else equal, would result in net positive expected returns. So it's not a surprise to see relatively succinct scouting reports delivered to the players (though I'm not going to comment on the content or depth of the specific reports posted above) -- it can easily be the case that getting the players to focus successfully on 5 important things will be more effective than communicating 20 things to them & hoping they're each able to act on most of the 20.
(I'm inventing these numbers for clarity in argument - obviously we tell our players more than 5 things about each opposing team. But you get the idea.)
Also, DeanO's point about the playoffs is a good one - there isn't much opportunity to change what your team does in the regular season due to the frequency of games and the variations between opponents. We'll do a lot more to prepare for a playoff series than we will for an individual regular season game, for this reason. I imagine Phx's playoff scouting reports are very different that the ones posted above.
-MZ
P.S. Should we assume that Ed's scouting reports were better than DeanO's yesterday? Maybe you guys should each post last night's report so we can all judge whose was better... |
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HoopStudies
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 705
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 1:44 pm Post subject: |
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| mikez wrote: | | Quote: | | Any guess on what MikeZ would react when he saw those? |
No comment... We'll let Rondo's recent stats speak for themselves.
Having said that, a key part of my job (and, actually, an even more important part of all coaches' jobs) is trying to figure out which items are actually worth communicating to coaches & players. You can find something (call it "X") that's statistically significant and that you think will have an important effect on a game, but there may be 20 other things the coaches may RIGHTLY think are even more important than X, and only 5 of those 20 that they think they can successfully communicate to the players such that the players will act on them. As a result it can be very rational not to communicate X to the players even though acting on it, all else equal, would result in net positive expected returns. So it's not a surprise to see relatively succinct scouting reports delivered to the players (though I'm not going to comment on the content or depth of the specific reports posted above) --
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... and relatively succinct statistical scouting reports to the coaches, who have their other things to think about.
| mikez wrote: |
P.S. Should we assume that Ed's scouting reports were better than DeanO's yesterday? Maybe you guys should each post last night's report so we can all judge whose was better... |
How about your scouting report against us a few weeks ago?
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Dean Oliver
Author, Basketball on Paper
The postings are my own & don't necess represent positions, strategies or opinions of employers. |
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Ed Küpfer
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 783
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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I got nothing. Battier for DPOY '09.
BTW if anyone wants to do an in-depth case study on the Nugs turnaround this season, you'll find plenty of stuff to talk about.
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supersub15
Joined: 21 Sep 2006
Posts: 273
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HoopStudies
Joined: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 705
Location: Near Philadelphia, PA
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| Posted: Wed Dec 17, 2008 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| supersub15 wrote: | | http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_23_229/ai_n13802856 |
A little more like it.
I did advance scouting for 4 years. We had that stuff on the top 7 players or so, plus shorter stuff on the other guys, plus work on team tendencies -- standard defense, zone defense, defense on sob/eob, inbounds plays, short clock plays/tendencies, info on what guys played well/poorly in the clutch, offensive system, offense vs different presses, who gets out in transition, who gets back in transition, even how players lined up for free throws (which, I remember, was something I didn't think about much). That's what I remember off the top of my head. NBA Advance scouting now covers a fair amount of that, though, as MikeZ says, it's hard to cover it all during regular season prep. And you really want to take care of the most important stuff. Sometimes, your advance guy will be sitting behind the bench when you actually play the team and can whisper things about short-clock/timeout stuff during the game because they know it so well.
It's a good exercise to do for yourself some advanced scouting. It's a path to really understanding the game.
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Dean Oliver
Author, Basketball on Paper
The postings are my own & don't necess represent positions, strategies or opinions of employers. |
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