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John Beattie
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 47
Location: NYC
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 Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:52 am Post subject: Proposed solution to "team rebounds" problem |
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Proposal as to how to resolve the "team rebounds" problem John Hollinger has been mentioning recently: we should differentiate them into two types.
We should refer to
(a) a ball that goes out of bounds after an airball or after a miss going off the rim, sometimes hopping over the backboard, or which is knocked out of bounds by an offensive player seeking to retrieve it just after a miss, or
(b) a ball that goes out of bounds because blocked by a defensive player or which is knocked out of bounds by a defensive player seeking to retrieve it just after a miss,
as "team rebounds", category (a) being "team defensive rebounds" and category (b) being "team offensive rebounds". These are, in effect, real team rebounds. Whereas we should refer to
(c) a ball after a miss by either team just at the end of a period, or
(d) a ball after a missed free throw where another free throw is yet to come, or
(e) a ball after a missed technical free throw
as "pro-forma team rebounds". These are, in effect, not really team rebounds but we pretend that they are, for form's sake i.e. pro-forma, so as to maintain the convention that in the play-by-play every miss has to be followed by a rebound.
If this proposal is adopted, then if team rebounds are shown in the box score they can appear as, for instance...
treb 12
toreb 1
tdreb 4
(pro-f) 7
...notice that the abbreviation of pro-forma, "pro-f", is enclosed in parentheses. Then in the play-by-play all the pro-forma team rebounds will be shown in parentheses such as "(Detroit offensive rebound)" whereas all the real team rebounds will be shown without parentheses such as "Detroit offensive rebound". By using parentheses this way we'll clearly denote the pro-forma team rebounds, and correlate them with the box score numbers tabulating them, yet not have to keep using the actual word pro-forma itself all the time in the play-by-play which would take up extra space.
I sent an email and pmail to John but he didn't notice them so no doubt he'll run across this thread eventually and meanwhile other people can discuss - if there are no obvious defects that someone might point out right off the bat. |
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Eli W
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 402
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 11:06 am Post subject: |
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Good ideas, but there's no need to re-invent the wheel - NCAA statkeepers have already solved the problem.
From the 2008 Basketball Statistician's Manual ( http://www.ncaa.org/library/statistical/basketball_stats_manual/ ):
| Quote: | Section 3, Article 1:
(b) A team rebound is credited to the team that is entitled to the ball for a throw-in if the ball has gone out of bounds after a missed goal but before there was player control. However, this does not include cases where the ball is out of bounds because it passes over the backboard or touches the supports or back of the backboard, the ceiling, or overhead equipment or supports, unless the ball was touched by a player after the missed goal but before the ball was out of bounds.
(c) A dead-ball rebound is credited whenever the ball is dead after a missed goal but before it meets the conditions for an individual or team rebound. It is credited as follows:
(1) To the team that is entitled to the ball for a throw-in or a free throw.
(2) To the team that shot the ball if the ball becomes dead due to the expiration of time or if the ball was shot after the expiration of time.
(3) To the team into whose basket a defensive player tips a missed shot.
(4) To the team into whose basket an offensive player deflects a missed
shot without intent.
(5) To the team that first gains possession of the opening jump ball after a missed free throw awarded for a technical foul. (See Rule 8-4.5)
(d) There is a distinction between team and dead-ball rebounds. There can be no team rebound unless the ball has gone out of bounds without a player first earning an individual rebound. If the ball becomes dead before it meets the requirement for either an individual or a team rebound, then a dead-ball rebound is credited (see Section 3, Article 1). Why keep dead-ball rebounds? Because team rebounds reflect team rebounding ability, while dead-ball rebounds do not. In national rankings, individual and team rebounds are included, but dead-ball rebounds are not. Analysis of game statistics indicates that each—team and dead-ball rebounds—accounts for about five percent of a team’s rebounds. Therefore, if dead-ball rebounds are counted as team rebounds, it could affect the national rankings. |
Here you can see an example of how they separately tabulate offensive and defensive team rebounds and offensive and defensive dead-ball rebounds:
http://bigten.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2007-2008/mich.html
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Eli W. (formerly John Quincy)
CountTheBasket.com |
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basketballvalue
Joined: 07 Mar 2006
Posts: 208
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
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| Eli W wrote: | Good ideas, but there's no need to re-invent the wheel - NCAA statkeepers have already solved the problem.
Here you can see an example of how they separately tabulate offensive and defensive team rebounds and offensive and defensive dead-ball rebounds:
http://bigten.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2007-2008/mich.html |
FYI I'm including appropriate team rebounds in the team rebounding stats at basketballvalue.com (e.g. www.basketballvalue.com/topplayers.php), but removing the additional rebounds listed in the play-by-play when they are extraneous (e.g. after missing the first of two free throws).
Thanks,
Aaron
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mtamada
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 377
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Eli W wrote: |
| Quote: |
(c) A dead-ball rebound is credited whenever the ball is dead after a missed goal but before it meets the conditions for an individual or team rebound. It is credited as follows:
(1) To the team that is entitled to the ball for a throw-in or a free throw.
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If I'm reading that correctly, if there is a missed shot followed by a loose ball foul, then the resulting "rebound" is considered to be a dead-ball rebound?
I think those "loose ball fouls drawn" should be considered to be team rebounds for the team that drew the foul, because I think they on the whole do reflect rebounding (or more precisely, positioning) ability. The classic stereotypical loose ball foul scenario is: Chris Wilcox misses a FGA, and is blocked out by Ben Wallace. In his zeal to get the ball, Wilcox climbs over Wallace's back. Tweet, loose ball foul, ball goes to Chicago.
That to me is not only the functional equivalent of a team getting a defensive rebound (actually it's better than a DR, because it saddles the opponents with a team foul and a personal foul), but it's one that's created by the same skills and talents and hustle that leads to players and teams being good at defensive rebounding.
Ditto offensive rebounding, although arguably those sorts of loose ball fouls might be caused more by the clumsiness of the would-be defensive rebounders than the offensive rebounding ability of the guy who got fouled. |
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John Beattie
Joined: 26 Jan 2007
Posts: 47
Location: NYC
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 7:08 am Post subject: |
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Mike: ah yes, I neglected to include loose ball fouls as one of the circumstances engendering "real" team offensive rebounds and team defensive rebounds.
Eli: can you elaborate on your comments. I'm not clear on how you mean the distinction between team rebounds and dead-ball rebounds in NCAA record keeping addresses the problem in NBA play-by-plays wherein team rebounds include, with no differentiation at all, not only categories (a) and (b) but also categories through (c) through (e) that I listed. Also, I don't see the dead-ball distinction being made in play-by-plays of the NCAA. As far as I can tell it's only made in the separate records such as the ones you cited at http://bigten.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2007-2008/mich.html . Therefore the answer doesn't appear to be "to properly differentiate dissimilar kinds of team rebounds in play-by-plays, all the NBA has to do is record them the same way as NCAA play-by-plays currently do".
In some college play-by-plays I just looked at, after a missed free throw where another free throw is to come, they usually show just "rebound" without specifying what type of rebound. Likewise on missed shots just at the end of a period.
Therefore could the solution I propose, using parentheses in the manner described, offer just as constructive an improvement for NCAA play-by-plays as for NBA play-by-plays?
Edit: I deleted a comment addressed to Aaron because it was unnecessary insofar as he was only referring in his post to tabulated stats, not game events being listed in play-by-plays. |
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Eli W
Joined: 01 Feb 2005
Posts: 402
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 1:05 am Post subject: |
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John, I didn't mean to imply that the problem was solved in the NBA at all. Just that the college stats keepers already put some work into coming up with a good system for how it could be done, and that it could be used as a model for the NBA in terms of terminology and definitions.
As far as the distinctions not being made in NCAA play-by-plays, I think that could just be because the PBPs available online are very limited. Given that team and deadball rebounds appear in official NCAA boxscores, I'm pretty sure stat keepers are recording them as such during the game. Actually, I'm not sure whether there are official NCAA play-by-plays - does anyone know?
Your suggestions for formatting are good ones and I didn't mean to brush over them.
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Eli W. (formerly John Quincy)
CountTheBasket.com |
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